Sexcapades .....Nebach
Recently, I have been following an unusual website. It is billed as a website to help with frum marital advice. I have a feeling, though that it hurts more then it helps. In fact, several readers have sent me emails claiming that there are several confirmed divorces that are directly related to the eroneous information contained in this website.
However, I find it extremely interest how one can write about the most banal, nivul peh, any sick fantasy one has, or other obscene matters all in the name of promoting Shalom Bayis, of course. On the other hand, if one writes the often painful truth, or something they don’t want to hear, it will be immediately deleted.
For example, I recently entered into a conversation entitled, What is the best surprise you gave your husband. Now I personally thought of my marriage, in which if I see my husband's shoes are worn out, or his shirt is torn, I will immediately replace it with something nice, If I notice that he is constantly interested in some device in a computer, electronics, or home-repair store, I will buy it and surprise him whenever possible.On the contrary, the vast majority of commenters in this discussion were suggesting things that can’t be mentiond on a wholesome, family-oriented blog.
My comments were immediately deleted, with the following response:
While its wonderful to be "bonded emotionally and spiritually in the most intense way", as years pass, some of our relationships, aren't like lines out of a cheesy romance novel, (I'm sure your husband carries your heaving mass over the threshhold before your bodies become intertwined as one writhing force of celebrated passion blah blah blah as well.)
For the rest of us, these little gestures are the key to keeping things new and exciting, which carries over to the emotional side of the relationship. Kol Hakavod lady. Keep on flashing!!
I believe the above speaks volumes about the current state of our society. It’s much easier to blame all our problems on the internet and secular entertainment than to make a thorough, sincere and often painful chesbon hanefesh. It’s much easier to be makpid on this weeks chumra than to seriously work on improving ones middos and being makpid in bein odom l’chavera. Wearing white shirts, darkening the part in the sheitel and constantly coming up with new chumras in kashruth and tznius is a lot more comfortable than diligently learning Ahavas Chesed and being makiam the Chofetz Chiams timeless and holy words. Afterall, feeling supierior to your neighbor who wears a denim skirt is a lot more geshmake than being moser nefesh to do a chesed for someone who was less than nice to you.
It a similar vein, it is so much easier to emulate and outdo whatever one would find on an obscene pornsite, and proclaim, "we're married, not only is it permitted, its a mitzva ", then to work one's marriage so that it does become "lines out of a romance novel", There is nothing at all cheesey about that at all
Clearly, its not my place to say what is technically halachically or haskafically permitted in marriage. Speak to your Rov about it. All I am going to postulate is, that if you do have a passionate, warm relationship, you will not feel the need to scream about your sexcapades on or offline. And you certainly wont go postal, when someone says they aren’t interested in hearing about it,
However, I find it extremely interest how one can write about the most banal, nivul peh, any sick fantasy one has, or other obscene matters all in the name of promoting Shalom Bayis, of course. On the other hand, if one writes the often painful truth, or something they don’t want to hear, it will be immediately deleted.
For example, I recently entered into a conversation entitled, What is the best surprise you gave your husband. Now I personally thought of my marriage, in which if I see my husband's shoes are worn out, or his shirt is torn, I will immediately replace it with something nice, If I notice that he is constantly interested in some device in a computer, electronics, or home-repair store, I will buy it and surprise him whenever possible.On the contrary, the vast majority of commenters in this discussion were suggesting things that can’t be mentiond on a wholesome, family-oriented blog.
My comments were immediately deleted, with the following response:
While its wonderful to be "bonded emotionally and spiritually in the most intense way", as years pass, some of our relationships, aren't like lines out of a cheesy romance novel, (I'm sure your husband carries your heaving mass over the threshhold before your bodies become intertwined as one writhing force of celebrated passion blah blah blah as well.)
For the rest of us, these little gestures are the key to keeping things new and exciting, which carries over to the emotional side of the relationship. Kol Hakavod lady. Keep on flashing!!
I believe the above speaks volumes about the current state of our society. It’s much easier to blame all our problems on the internet and secular entertainment than to make a thorough, sincere and often painful chesbon hanefesh. It’s much easier to be makpid on this weeks chumra than to seriously work on improving ones middos and being makpid in bein odom l’chavera. Wearing white shirts, darkening the part in the sheitel and constantly coming up with new chumras in kashruth and tznius is a lot more comfortable than diligently learning Ahavas Chesed and being makiam the Chofetz Chiams timeless and holy words. Afterall, feeling supierior to your neighbor who wears a denim skirt is a lot more geshmake than being moser nefesh to do a chesed for someone who was less than nice to you.
It a similar vein, it is so much easier to emulate and outdo whatever one would find on an obscene pornsite, and proclaim, "we're married, not only is it permitted, its a mitzva ", then to work one's marriage so that it does become "lines out of a romance novel", There is nothing at all cheesey about that at all
Clearly, its not my place to say what is technically halachically or haskafically permitted in marriage. Speak to your Rov about it. All I am going to postulate is, that if you do have a passionate, warm relationship, you will not feel the need to scream about your sexcapades on or offline. And you certainly wont go postal, when someone says they aren’t interested in hearing about it,
posted by SemGirl | Friday, March 23, 2007
25 Comments:
Good post! But, you neglected to mention the name of the website you are referring to so we can all check it out and come to our own edcated conclusions!
I think that little gifts are nice and some romance is good too. Everything has it's time and place. It also depends how old you are, how tired you are, can you afford a lot of little gifts, etc.
And I won't brag about anything unless I can post photographic evidence, which Google might not allow in some cases.
why didnt you link to it? lol
I'd hate to start becoming the naysayer on this blog, but it so seems that lately I do not find myself agreeing that much with your posts, SG. We have disagreed about this privately too, so I will just write my thoughts here in short. Maybe it is better that I just not comment here anymore. I do hate to think I only come here to disagree.
For starters, I simply don't get, how almost every type of complaint problem and societal issue ends up being blamed on white shirts, chumras etc. on this and other blogs. Like, please. That does seem so shallow and single-minded and unbecoming of you.
Secondly, while sexual escapades should totally not be advertised and stuff, I strongly disagree with the notion tht enough "ahavas yisroel" and "understanding" in a marriage, without a strong sexual basis too, is enough. Maybe after years, I don't know, but even then, that is after years of a cemented relationship, in which relations, does play a very strong part of it.
Let us not kid ourselves. We are sexual beings and Hashem made us that way. Yes, we should channel it to our marriages. That is what we are supposed to do, I think. To deny that it is important, and that a good marriage can survive on love, concern and other such things alone, I think is to be out of touch and deny reality.
Yes, too much can be disgustng and selfish and unJewish. And surely advertising things is usually wrong, cause that takes things out of the realm of marriage and makes it cheap. (I am not talking about seeking genuine advice. That can be different.) But to say that it is unecessary, I can't agree.
Hope my comments are taken in the right way, as my own personal opinion.
Shalom
ditto
Due to my position, I have been asked by a number of people my opinion of that site, and all I can say is that I think it is a lot worse than you make it out to be. (Though I agree with Elisheva that the root of the problem is not as you describe.)
Flaunting Halacha in the norm. Denigrating all boundaries held for thousands of years is encouraged. People who point this out are shouted down as being close-minded.
The feedback I received was that the average person suffers tremendous spiritual loss from that site.
Never will I recommend it.
A question or issue should be discussed with a competent Rav or a Frum specialist.
By the way, kudos to you for not mentioning the name of that site. It was the proper thing to do.
Where do you think these sickos get the ideas from? these forbidden TV shows, of course.
The secular media is to blame. It's the fact that it's so forbidden that makes people seek it out. Once people seek out the media with such spite, they take it all in. Way too much.
And yes, while sex is extremely kadosh, it has been horribly tainted by the secular media and society in which we live. It's been mixed in and become disgusting. Nothing's sacred anymore.
Partially because of the extremely idealistic restrictive lifestyle that is being demanded of us by many rabbanim.
LV and Fbabe...sorry some things are just not worth advertising.
JP...photographic evidence,lol..I think I'll pass on that.
Elisheva...you are my closest blog-friend, and I always value your opinion, who told you that you arent allowed to disagree. I have already answered you privately on this topic..
IFT...absolutely, I think that website is primarily interested in titilation, as I have emailed them and suggested they moderate better, and in conjunction with Rabbinical guidance, and even spoke to few halacha/counseling hotlines that would be glad to help, and it always been ignored.
Michelle...unfortunately, what you are saying is absolutely correct..
Looking at this post, I am not quite sure what to say about it.
and I have great difficulty following the discussion. I hope that my comments are actualy on subject.
Elisheva, I think that you are right that she does tend to over blame those kinds of things, although there is alot to be said for our single minded focus on meaningless chumra.
But in truth I think that both of these issues, the perversion that is creaping in to lives of married couples (if this is to be so) and the obsession of chumras are both offshoots of the same problems. Our youth are not allowed many "outlets" for their interests, creativities, and feelings. I remember as a young child that I used to build models of things using kits. I never finished them but they where a major outlet for my personality. Others involve themselves in wholesome sports, and in creating art or other venues for expression. These things bring a sense of personal accompishment and well being to a person when they accomplish them, and I think that it is the lack of this feeling that drives people to find their accomplishement in meaningless chumrot (like not helping pregnant women who are struggling with a baby in a pram and 3 kids all under the age of 7 and trying to open a door, I think that elisheva has spoken about this before).
it is also the loss of this sense of satisfaction that forces our youth in to doing other things that perhaps they should not be doing, and this lack of hobbies and interests that make adults seek physical satisfaction, sometimes (it would seem, thank g-d I do not know) at the expense of their spouses. I think that they are both very similar issues.
At least how I was taught and how I understand the relevant laws is that intimate relationships should be intensely emotionaly intimate, and should also be very mutual. To reduce it to simply "pleasing" a spouse is to functionaly decapitate it. To do something that one would otherwise rather not do just for the sake of the other both undercuts ones own self worth and also shows a segnificant lack of appriciation for your spouses feelings, and if this is not the case than the marriage likely has segnificant problems because it means that the spouse is not entirely empathetic to the others feelings.
THe physical intimacy should be a reflection of the emotional intimacy, and it can not substitute for it. Emotional intimacy is built by being connected to your spouse, to knowing their thoughs and feelings, and sharing your selves, your personalities, and knowing each other through and through. When enaging in that act it should be an expression of this closeness, and a sharing experiance, something totaly mutualy desireable to both. Reducing such an awesome thing to the simple novelty of surprise is to set an unreasonable expectation, and to also undercut the connection that is happening.
without the interests to share with the other what else is left to the relationship other than physicality? how much emotional intimacy and mutual discovery is possible? and when you reduce it to simply physicality what value is there in it? Such desires could really be satisfied by a harlot, and do you really want to be on that level to your husband? Our relationships with our spouses are supposed to be much more than this kind of simple pleasure aspect. We are supposed to be "helpmates" opposite each other, and from the example of adam we know that torah did not speak of the reproductive functions when it said this, because adam had that before chava even came along.
But again, this I think has to do with the unavailability of satisfaction elsewhere. Let us face it, not everyone is capable of learning gemorah or of finding fulfilment in it. The law teaches that those who cannot find thier fulfillment in it should seek fulfilment in work or other productive labor from the outset and set asside times for torah, so that they not stagnate, and anyway then they will be able to support those who really can find fulfilment in torah, and raise their children in security. This single minded focus that forces everyone in to the same cookie cutter does us no favors.
I do not think that people would be looking for this kind of satisfaction if other satisfaction where to be held elsewhere.
I just think that physical satisfaction is litteraly impossible if there is not already emotional connection and satisfaction in the relationship. At that point it becomes like a crown to the bond, but I do not think that it forms the foundation. This is part of the reason why people say that shomer negia helps in dating is because it forces us to try and find emotional satisfaction first, and only later to build physical relationship.
and I do not think that it is true that boys are only going to be happy with physical satisfaction and not emotional satisfaction. I think that boys have been taught to believe that, but that they are quite mistaken, and that they need someone smarter than themselves to demonstrate that to them.
Yep damn Hollywood!
Have to highly agree with Elisheva and IFT. Plus, you are making that site to be worse than it is. Yes, lots of posts are 'titulating' on the other hand a lot of people do need an outlet to talk about such matters and if you dislike it then why are you there reading the posts?
It's a two way street, if you don't like what you see shut off the monitor and step away from the computer.
"Due to my position, I have been asked by a number of people my opinion of that site, and all I can say is that I think it is a lot worse than you make it out to be "
"Have to highly agree with Elisheva and IFT Plus, you are making that site to be worse than it is"
B, Im confused, IFT, claims if anything it is much worse then I said it was, and you claim to agree with him.
People are making too much of that site and the fact that they dislike what goes on there. If you don't like it, it isn't your hashkafah, then don't go to the site. If you don't like what you read somewhere then don't go there.
One persons halacha does not equal another persons halacha.
May I politely say that while this website seems to be doing damage, I don't think this topic should be on any Jewish website bichlall. Can we have a more appropriate topic?
Hey Sem Girl,
I dont get ur issue with that site, it makes it very clear what they are about "intimate issues" and of course thats what should be discussed on the bulletins. Yes there are some issues with the site, but overall it does a great service for frum people to discuss issues that otherwise would not have a place or person to discuss with.
I find it helpful to read a lot of the issues and see what other frum couples in a similar situation to my own deal with, and there really is a lot of useful information on the site.
Dave…… The problem is that such a site needs to be moderated much better, and desperately needs Rabbinical guidance. I emailed the site director numerous times, and brought this to her attention, and was basically ignored. How would you feel about a Hachnosas Orchim Chesed Organization that provides a truly wonderful service to the community, but often serves Treif meals.
Chani…..
I agree with you. But I do feel that just sticking one’s head in the sand isn’t necessary the best approach here, considering, that unfortunately a lot of frum couples are being influenced by that site.
MNJB……
"One persons halacha does not equal another persons halacha. "
I beg to differ, but there are numerous things discussed there that are unequivocally ossur regardless of you would ask. You would be right, if it was billed as a general secular advice-forum.
Dave…… The problem is that such a site needs to be moderated much better, and desperately needs Rabbinical guidance. I emailed the site director numerous times, and brought this to her attention, and was basically ignored. How would you feel about a Hachnosas Orchim Chesed Organization that provides a truly wonderful service to the community, but often serves Treif meals.
Chani…..
I agree with you. But I do feel that just sticking one’s head in the sand isn’t necessary the best approach here, considering, that unfortunately a lot of frum couples are being influenced by that site.
MNJB……
"One persons halacha does not equal another persons halacha. "
I beg to differ, but there are numerous things discussed there that are unequivocally ossur regardless of you would ask. You would be right, if it was billed as a general secular advice-forum.
This comment has been removed by the author.
its so funny how you went from a girl trying to get married with a wild side to you to a fakrimped advice column on the facts of life. just chill out and save this crap for when you are old and wrinkled.
Hi
Please consider writing news pieces or an op-ed for Jewrusalem: Israeli Uncensored News. We strive to present different views and opinions while rejecting political correctness. Ideally, we try to make the news "smart and funny." Thus, your input is very welcome.
Best,
Alex
www.jewrusalem.net/en
I was just on the website in question, when I chanced upon this post you were referring to. I suggest you get your facts straight before you start bashing this site. The response you referred to was not in response to your post, which was very obvious from the forum. So don't have everyone start jumping to conclusions...
PS - feel free not to post this if it's too insulting, but I just wanted to make a point
Dont worry Ally dear.. Its not insulting at all, although I dont get your point..
I am so happy I found that site. I was so relieve to find out that I am not alone, I am not a lone sexual pervert, other frum women have the same needs and issues.
I know a bunch of guys who are in their who arent frum and in their 20's who when they are bored will visit the site you mentioned and start threads. They ahve all come to the conclusion that the site was created as a substitute fro the craigslist casual encounters personals.
I must say that I have visted the site and while it is very funny to read halachic debates that sound like hardcore porn movies that are written by 16 year olds- it is a chillul Hshem and offers no purpose other then a way to get people thinking about completely assur topics.
If people want to know such advice they should seek out a frum sex therapist, or their LOR.
Based on the spelling and grammar usage- I would venture to say that 75% of the postings on the site were started by underage yeshiva boys who were quite bored with their free time.
www.frumsatire.wordpress.com
I am sure you are celebrating the closing ? hacking ? of CK
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