Hi, I was just your typical 19 year old Seminary girl in South Jersey (if you don't know where I mean, you are probably on the wrong blog). We all have nisoynos, challenges, and experiences, both positive and negative. Here is where I have decided to share some of them.

Location: Lakewood, New Jersey, United States

Wednesday, October 18, 2006

What are You Doing For Lunch ?

What a wonderful idea. Fifteen minutes of halacha and ten minutes of Chovos HaLovovos. What a great way to spend lunch. Even the lunch is included . But wait a second, its not for me. Its for Men Only.

And here I thought I was going to get more out of my lunch break. I guess not. My husband is no longer here for lunch, but I am. So, ladies , what are you doing for lunch..


Blogger Elisheva said...

Great to be back ! First comment!

10/19/2006 3:50 PM  
Blogger Elisheva said...

This really seems like a great idea. Rav Cohen (and his wife) are amazing!

I know you've brought this up before and feel about this. I still think most ladies/girls are not as interested as you are in the same way. But sure, for those who want it, it should be there. I keep seeing ads for ladies' stuff. I know the Lakewood sem has night shiurim which are supposed to be very good. There are more stuff advertised. Maybe I'll try to look into what and when and comment about it here.

Personally, call me touchy-feely, but this intellectual stuff is not my thing. Hope we all find our niche.


10/19/2006 3:54 PM  
Blogger socialworker/frustrated mom said...

Very nice idea nice to see ya back blogging.

10/19/2006 7:28 PM  
Blogger Shoshana said...

Have your husband tape it for you - I know it's not the same thing, but at least then you will get to learn what he is as well.

I don't really understand why these kind of programs can't be open to men and women - in Manhattan, I'm pretty sure they are, I know they did them in Baltimore and Atlanta as well. Maybe you could try to organize something with one of the rebbetzins, it certainly seems like it would be great to make such good use of a lunch break, though I'm not sure there are so many women in Lakewood who have jobs where such a break would be feasible. I could be wrong though. I do have a friend who works in an office in Lakewood with a lot of other frum people - maybe something could be set up there (e-mail me for more info).

10/20/2006 1:24 PM  
Blogger wearywife said...

Aww c'mon, Elisheva......two points on Lakewood Sem:

1)Its at night when alot of us are tired from working all day. Lunch time is perfect for a little learning.
2)I'm sure theres a charge (unlike most men's shiurim)
We both know that most ladies stuff is fluff (thats rhymes, doesn't it?)

Also, how do you expect to grow in yidishkeit w/o regular learning?
How do you expect to have what to give over to your children?
I'm also a touchy feely person. There's nothing wrong with that. However, I realize that I dont learn nearly as much as I should. But I dont delude myself into thinking that all I have to do is sew up the slits on my skirt and refrain from talking to men. Nor do I kid myself into thinking that my husband learns for me.

Yes, it's a mitzvah to help your husband learn, but that doesn't mean that you yourself dont have to bother learning.

In short, if we're not growing we're going backwards. In order to grow we need to learn. It's that simple.

10/22/2006 11:06 AM  
Blogger yeshivaguy said...

Quit burching. (Yiddish for bitching.) You think it's a great idea for women, well, get it organized. Instead, you sit around blaming the guy who put it together for the men.

10/22/2006 11:18 AM  
Blogger tuesdaywishes said...

My shul (in Toronto) just started a shiur in Chovos Halevavos on Shabbos afternoon, open to both genders.

As for learning for your own development and/or to give it over to your kids, how about taking some initiative? You can spend your lunch hour listening to Daf Yomi shiurim on your headphones, or whatever else turns you on. Or bring a sefer and learn with a chevrusa. (That's what the guys do!)

The best thing is to pick a sefer and learn with your husband during or after dinner. This is mostly for couples who don't have kids yet or empty-nesters, but hubby and I did it on Shabbos for years and really enjoyed it. I think it was also good for our kids to see that we could discuss topics in Halacha with each other and for my daughters to see that Ima can learn too! ( My daughters are now high school girls, going through Tanach on the Perek Yomi schedule, on their own initiative.)

10/22/2006 11:50 AM  
Blogger Halfnutcase said...

i know that a book i once read on marriage said that it's imperative that husband and wife learn together so that they can continue to grow together in their hashkafa and understanding. The author of the book seemed very very adimant about it.

i really think that more of these lectures should be open to husbands and their wives together as a couple so that they can learn together and grow together.

(and elisheva, i'm also a fairly "touchy feely" person, and i still like to learn in order to grow, granted i much prefer indepth study of chumash and nach and deriving moral lessons from the aggada than i like learning talmud (which is also fun but i prefer something a tad bit more practical) (and i'm a boy)

(if i where to learn something out of talmud and work with it and figgure out that the way we do things is wrong i couldn't exactly follow it now could i? better not to learn it in the first place than to learn it and have that battle in my concience, i have to many of them as it is)

10/22/2006 1:21 PM  
Blogger wearywife said...

Jeez, YG, that comment must have taken alot of thought.*eyes rolling*

I'm not blaming anyone. And I'm sure it would be much easier to build an entire women's kollel in Lakewood than to make people like you less narrow minded.

Come to think of it, the biggest obsticle to organizing womens shiurim is narrow minded people like you.

However, this is all beside the point. I merely pointed out that learning is crucial for women's development and there is no subsitute for it( ie tznius, etc.)
I told it like it is and the truth hurts.

Perhaps learned women would scare the pekie out of you because they would be able to discern that you're not learning as much as you should....

TW....I agree with everything you said.Kudos to Toronto for being more open minded. However, once again I was merely pointing out that learning is crucial for women. Now, you and I might realize that this is so obvious that it goes with out saying but many people just dont get it. The fact is that ongoing, organized, serious learning for women needs to be given a much higher priority.

Lastly, before another person says why dont you organize shiurin....
thats an entirely different topic.

10/22/2006 2:15 PM  
Blogger yeshivaguy said...

WW: "Barim zich nisht." My comment was actually not directed toward you at all, but toward SG. But if you wish, you may apply it to yourself as well.

And in fact, it required no thought at all. I am gifted in that I can detect baseless bitching in the blink of an eye.

10/22/2006 2:29 PM  
Blogger wearywife said...

Ah, YG, but I'm even more gifted at detecting hide bound narrow mindedness......

Perhaps I should give a shiur in that to young girls looking for a chosson.

10/22/2006 3:38 PM  
Blogger Halfnutcase said...

ww, somehow i think that might be a good thing.

10/22/2006 3:55 PM  
Blogger yeshivaguy said...

If narrow-mindedness consists of recognizing a discontented kvetch who would rather rail against others than do something on her own, I gladly accept the label.

10/22/2006 4:40 PM  
Blogger Halfnutcase said...

no yg, narrow minded ness includes husbands who feel insecure when their wives leard who would rather their wives just stay at home all the time.

narrowmindedness means not recognizing that this is the chief thing keeping more girls from continuing learning.

what about all the smart girls who are litteraly told to hide how smart they are because it will scare the boys?

what about them?

isn't that kind of attitude nerrowmindedness?

it's the men whos attitudes make women afraid that if they learn they will be hated by their husbands that makes it so difficult.

(and no not all women really mind this, but just as many just give up hoping scince it's impossible anyway)

10/22/2006 5:37 PM  
Blogger wearywife said...

HNC you said it all.....couldn't have said it better myself
YG.....HNC gave you alot to think about.

10/22/2006 9:17 PM  
Blogger yeshivaguy said...

He gave me nothing at all to think about. If that is your definition of narrow-mindedness, I definitively reject the label. My point is not that women should not learn, but that, instead of bitching about not being included when men learn, they should go ahead and organize the women's shiurim they need.

10/22/2006 10:06 PM  
Blogger Halfnutcase said...

the problem yg, is that most women are afraid that their husbands will reject them if they learn, actualy its a rather sickening problem that also affects the non-jewish world too. they will only be able to learn once they nolonger need to be afraid of their husband's insecurity, that he wont reject her once she shows an apititude towards intelectual achievement.

before we can start organizing shiurim we absolutely have to deal with mens insecurity so that women feel safe to learn.

that is the essence of the problem.

10/23/2006 9:08 AM  
Blogger yeshivaguy said...

HNC: You don't know what you're talking about. In fact, most husbands do not reject their wives for wanting to learn, nor do most women fear such rejection. You've cooked up a load of bs.

10/23/2006 10:22 AM  
Blogger ms. shtark said...

HNC, I happen 2 disagree. I think that most husbands would be fine if their wives would learn something. I can't speak for all, but from my family and the men that I know, airheadedness is not valued and that women who go to a shiur or arrange them or take classes is something to be admired and then have a half decent intellectual conversation about. Where I am, us girls have arranged various shiurim and we even give them on our own and prepare and take turns, with the classes working out very nicely. some girls had their husbands asking if they can take themselves so that they can hear it after so I don't think men are that insecure. if anyone needs some ideas for topics or tips on arranging and actually getting girls or married ladies to come, i can give some tips and i will have u know - that is the hardest part - when it actually gets down to offering a shiur, there has to be a huge draw like a seminary teacher kind of speaker or r frand, pesach krohn... of the like before girls actually pick them selves up and arrange their schedules so that they can actually attend. altho women claim they want the learning, from my personal exp. it's hard to get a solid grp together who will actually attend on a regular basis.. and come thru

10/23/2006 10:28 AM  
Blogger jewish philosopher said...

Semgirl, would you really want the lunch break lessons to be coed? What if some other men would start lusting after you? And, more importantly, what if you lusted after them?? You might get your Chovos haLevovos but who knows what for dessert!!

10/23/2006 12:51 PM  
Blogger Lakewood Venter said...

This is a cool program! I know a couple of guys who went to it, and there is no charge for it by the way as someone in your comments suggested.

Who said it's for men only? I bet if you showed up there they wouldnt throw you out!

But, as ewish philosopher pointed out it may lead to a yummy "Un-Chovos Halevovos-esque" dessert. lol

10/23/2006 12:57 PM  
Blogger jewish philosopher said...

Semgirl, I was just curious, and I hope this isn't rude, but when can we expect the arrive of Sembaby? Any good news to report??

10/23/2006 2:27 PM  
Blogger tuesdaywishes said...

WW- the guys who are afraid of smart, educated women continuing to learn are usually married to fluffy, airheaded women. We need not concern ourselves with them, as there are plenty of airheads to go around and a smart woman needs an equally smart or else VERY secure husband.

As for organizing shiurim, I agree with most of Ms. Shtark's comment, except that here it's not the "big name" that draws women. In my experience here, you need one of three things:
-a 'sexy' topic (parenting is also a draw)
-a female speaker
-a social hook. Rotating speakers gets the whole group involved.

10/23/2006 2:36 PM  
Blogger Halfnutcase said...

the only time something like that would lead to anything innapropriate would be if the people themselves had no yiras shemayim at all.

contrary to popular myth, boys and girls sitting in the same room does not engender inapropriate behavior.

10/23/2006 2:45 PM  
Blogger yeshivaguy said...

"contrary to popular myth, boys and girls sitting in the same room does not engender inapropriate behavior."

Wow, a news flash. Sex appeal is now "a myth." At least you admit it's a popular myth.

10/23/2006 2:54 PM  
Blogger jewish philosopher said...

As an ordained rabbi, I permit Semgirl to attend mixed gatherings only with her husband present. Preferably, he should be carrying a gun.

10/23/2006 4:26 PM  
Blogger jewish philosopher said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

10/23/2006 4:26 PM  
Blogger chana said...

JP... you spend too much time online, you need to take a cold shower. If that is your picture, why are you acting like a 16 yr old bochur for..

10/23/2006 5:03 PM  
Blogger Halfnutcase said...

sex apeal does not equal action.

unless of course you have no morals.

10/23/2006 6:44 PM  
Blogger yeshivaguy said...

Well, of course it doesn't automatically equal action. Duh. But it *can* lead to action, which is the point of separation of the sexes.

And this come as news to you, but even people with morals are susceptible to temptation.

10/23/2006 6:55 PM  
Blogger Halfnutcase said...

not really, unless of course they put themselves in stupid circumstances (like bundling in the 1800's america!)

basicaly unless you ask for trouble your not going to get it.

and got news for you, hashem wants us to live IN THE WORLD. it is impossible to live in the world if you are going to completely seperate the sexes.

in any normal in the world cirumstance (and being together at a shiur is no different from being in say, the office or walking in a mall, actualy it's decidedly safer) boys and girls don't just decide to go sleep together, which is what you are suggesting.

really it's quite absurd.

and the whole seperating the sexes thing like that encourages sin, not discourages it, because the moment they have to get in to the real world when they've never been taught to deal with it, predictably they sin.

and such people have no real morals, only external imposition of the morals of others.

10/23/2006 7:34 PM  
Blogger yeshivaguy said...

Oh please, this is so stupid. Anyone who thinks that regular contact between the sexes does not have the potential to turn into something more is deluding themselves. You're bringing a proof from men and women working in offices? And have you never heard of office romances? They occur all the time! Please. Get real.

10/23/2006 8:08 PM  
Blogger ThinkingJew said...

We've been around all this before...

But just as a reminder:

HNC: The gemara is replete with examples of amoraim who found themselves in tempting circumstances and either sinned, or almost sinned. I guess that proves YG's ascertion that even moral people - very moral people! - can be tempted.

The Torah teaches us to be smart and keep seperate, and the Torah, written by G-d after all, might just know a bit more about human nature and the fact that even the best of men can be tempted, better than we do.

As YG said, office stories abound. True you can't be fully separate all the time in real life, but the pressure of needing to be as seperate as you can, does in fact prevent much otherwise flirting, as can be seen by the flirting and sad stories of indiscretions that take place in communities with relaxed attitudes to men and women mingling.

Acting high and mighty and condescending by saying real people don't fall, and you just have to learn not to sin, shows a serious lack of understanding of the human psyche. The Torah says, "al ta'amin be'atzmecha ad yom moscha" Do not be sure (or cocky, in your case) of yourself until your dying day. I don't know about you, but I'll trust G-d on this one.

About the other issues, Ms. Shtark is on the mark. Most real men actually want wives they can have a good conversation with, not dumb airheads. But at the same time, their life should NOT REVOLVE around intellectual growth all the time. Abandoning children so as to attend a shiur or go daven, is not what G-d wants either.

Ms. Shtark seems to understand the happy medium of balancing shiurim with life and will IY"H make a good wife one day. (If I'm correct in understanding that you are as yet single...) Yes, the men who don't learn are scared of smart wives, so they marry the airheads. Great!

In short, the whole thing of guys being narrow-minded for not wanting ladies to learn and that that is why there are no shiurim for women is one big fabrication by people wishing to knock the frum system. It does not exist though in real life.

There are shiurim. Just this week I saw an ad in one of the Lakewood papers for a ladies' shiur by very smart intellectual speakers. Why do I not see the ad posted on this blog, I wonder? If the shiurim are not the same as the men's, it is because of hundreds of different reasons, logistical, physical, and yes, emotional.

WW, anyone who has followed Elisheva's blog knows she is very, very smart. She is no airhead. At the same time, yes, she is obviously - very obviously! - a touchy feely person. So a shiur to give her fulfillment would be different than for a guy. But to say she has nothing to give over to her children after reading her blog is a most ridiculous assertion. I envy her kids IY"H for what their mother has to impart to them.

SG - You seem smart too, and you might personally feel the need for more, but as others pointed out, there is no shortage of tapes, books, and seforim. Face the fact that you have your own personal needs and take care of them. If it is not the same as a shiur, true. Everyone has his hardship and individual need and we can't expect the world to deliver our every personal need on a silver platter just because we need it.

When the need is the same as most others, great. It will be easier to fulfill. When it is more personal, go out and take care of it yourself. You seem eminently capable.

10/23/2006 9:26 PM  
Blogger yeshivaguy said...

TJ, you're talking tzu der zach.

10/23/2006 10:11 PM  
Blogger Semgirl said...

Ok, while I greatly appreciate that this blog is starting to show signs of life again.. How we end up discussing inter-gender improprieties again. I said noth of this shiur being mixed.. Seperate but equal is fine, as per "Brown vs Board of Ed", or are we still years behind that..

Elisheva, my dear friend, I beg to differ but I have seen your intelectual side many times..

10/23/2006 10:44 PM  
Blogger yeshivaguy said...

I agree. Separate but equal. My point is, if it's so important to you, then do something about it, rather than complain about how unfair it is that no one else has done it for you.

10/23/2006 11:23 PM  
Blogger Halfnutcase said...

YG, it also seems to have more to do with the people themselves than the system.

can't tell you how much i hear about the missbehavior of "frum" people. if it isn't readily available they'll find it.

and that said sometimes seperation is appropriate, such as durring davening, or a number of other cases (as in where one or both sexes are falling down drunk), but in most instances we have to teach them how to behave in real world circumstances and not baby them.

hashem will deal with the rest.

10/24/2006 6:31 AM  
Blogger jewish philosopher said...

Semgirl, your original comment "But wait a second, its not for me. Its for Men Only." sounded like you wanted women included as well. If not, you could have written "But wait a second, its not for me. Its for Men. But where is the Women's class?"

I am trying to protect your virtue, which in this insane world is a full time job.

Chana, about my age, age is just a number. And that's really me and my son, the two most attractive men in Wesley Hills, NY.

10/24/2006 10:00 AM  
Blogger wearywife said...

YG-the original point was that learning for women is important. No more no less. Contrary to what one commenter said(I forget which one) learning for women is not diametricaly opposed to being a good wife and mother. It's part and parcel of being a good wife and mother!!!In fact learning makes a woman a much better wife and mother!!!!

All women, touchy feely or not, need to learn. It doesn't matter if her husband is the godol hador or works in a grocery store. ALL women need to learn seriously and on a regular basis. This includes recent sem grads and alta bobbies
and everyone in between. It's not a hobby, its a necesity!

Before we can talk about organizing more learning for women, everyone( both men and women) need to understand and accept the above reality. Otherwise it will be like trying to introduce blind people to color. It wont go over too well.

10/24/2006 12:53 PM  
Blogger ms. shtark said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

10/24/2006 1:40 PM  
Blogger yeshivaguy said...

No, the original point (of SG's post) was that women are discriminated against in the Lunch and Learn project. To which I responded that instead of bitching, she should organize a shiur.

As for your contention that every woman has to learn, says who? There are plenty of people who are just not interested in learning. They may be interested in hisorirus, and they may be yarei shamayim, and they might daven every day, but they are not interested in in-depth learning.

You say that everyone has to come around to your point of view before there's any point in organizing shiurim. I don't get it. Let those who are interested organize shiurim. And let those who not interested alone.

And quit complaining.

10/24/2006 1:40 PM  
Blogger Halfnutcase said...

when you baby kids all their lives they need those gedarim. when you teach them how not to need them, they don't.

neither I nor practicaly anyone i know has ever had a serious problem with that, ever.

as far as i'm concerened what you're attempting to tell me as as patently absurd as telling me that the sky is pink.

the only reason you guys need that is because you're to sheltered to be able to cope without it, and it endangers your spiritual lives.

10/24/2006 3:39 PM  
Blogger yeshivaguy said...

Yeah, right. All the people fooling around in the big world out there are formerly sheltered yeshiva guys.

Look, maybe you have a low sex drive; maybe you're ugly; maybe you're a nerd; maybe you have a lousy personality; and maybe you're the tzadik hador. But everyone else knows exactly what I'm talking about.

10/24/2006 3:50 PM  
Blogger Semgirl said...

YeshivGuy...I really dont see the need to resort to personal insults, here.

It never ceases to amaze me how the very same Bnei whatever (certainly not bnei Torah), that are getting so incensed about gender related stuff, are always the ones who blatantly disregard Bain Odom L'Chaveiro, and Covod HaBrios.

Correct me if I'm wrong Mr YeshivaGuy (sic), but if you embarrass someone in public,, you lose your Chelek Olam Haba, it is equated with murder..

Now, lets takes a worst case scenario, Mr. x meets Mrs. y somewhere, (more likely in a chatroom, tell me you arent going to one, after commenting on my blog, but anyway), and they get a lil too friendly with each other. Granted it is terribly wrong. Maybe even a Issur Caras under certain conditions. I dont know, I dont get to sit in BMG all day and study these things, because my skin is the wrong color..But you still dont lose your entire Chelek Olam Haba...

This may be anonymous, but HNC is still a flesh and blood, Yid. And you maybe hurting his feelings. I dont think there is a Shita in the world that would matir that, regardless of what your Cavonas are...

10/24/2006 4:31 PM  
Blogger yeshivaguy said...

Uh, rebbetzin, there was no insult there. In fact, I suggested that he is perhaps the tzaddik hador. He claims that he is immune to sexual temptation. My point was that ordinary people are not immune. I illustrated it with examples of types who might be immune, my point being that unless he is one of those, he too is susceptible. So in fact, not only was I not insulting him, I was complimenting him, by saying that since he's certainly a normal human being, and *not* one of the aforementioned, he too is subject to temptation. (A lamdan would have seen that right away; you women really should learn more!)

And hey! did they skip "hevei dan es kol adam l'kaf z'chus" at your latest mussar class?

10/24/2006 5:06 PM  
Blogger wearywife said...

YG-its exactly because my first priority is being a mom that I feel learning is so crucial for women. Judiasm is a legalistic religion and we live in a very morally ambiguous world. Mothers need to arm themselves against todays world with learning.
Tell me, dear, how does a woman come to yiras shomayim?????

We're not living in the shtetel anymore. Hisioros and crying over a siddur is no longer enough in our corupt society. In depth learning is a necesity for todays woman. It makes her a better wife better mother, better person and better Jew.

Wake up and smell the coffee...its thinking like yours that holds women back from organizing learning and realizing their potential.

10/24/2006 5:18 PM  
Blogger yeshivaguy said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

10/24/2006 10:22 PM  
Blogger yeshivaguy said...

First of all, I'm not your dear.

Secondly, the only thing that's keeping you from organizing learning groups is your own slothfulness, not my thinking.

Thirdly, contrary to your misconception, I have nothing at all against women learning. I'm all for them learning all they like. What I said was that it's not for everyone, so you might as well get started without waiting for everyone to join your parade.

And finally, I feel that the primary means of developing yiras shamayim, both for men and women, is by observing, emulating and interacting with others who have it, whether at home or in school or yeshiva. You don't get it from a book.

10/24/2006 10:25 PM  
Blogger wearywife said...

YG-you certainly are not my dear.

Secondly, it's not your thinking per se......its the mind set that your thinking exemplifies. Lets use the following analogy: I want to organize my own exercise group. I hire a personal trainer. Now I want several other women to join( no mixing of the genders here lol)to defray the cost of the trainer. However, much to my dismay, I find that most women are not interested in physical fitness. Why? because they were told from the time that they were little girls that exersise is mainly for their fathers, brothers and husbands. They can take little walks in the park but they should leave the serious exersise to the men because firm muscles are not for women. Is it my laziness that prevents me from organizing my own exercise group? No. I am unable to get a group together because not enough women (and/or their husbands) appreciate the importance of physical fitness for women. Yes, I can get a workout tape and do aerobics at home, but it would be much better with an instructor and a whole group. Get the analogy?

Lastly, I wholeheartedly agree with you about the value of positive role models. However this is only half the picture. True, yiras shomayim doesn't come from a book either. I've had the misfortune to meet people with all the book learning and no yiras shomayim. A person (man or woman) needs both

10/25/2006 9:11 AM  
Blogger yeshivaguy said...

What you're saying about women being discouraged from learning is baloney. To the contrary, schooling for women today is heavily biased toward book learning. In fact, many feel that girls today are doing too *much* book learning in school, not too little. (Not that I agree, but that the mindset exists illustrates my point.)

If married women are not learning, it's b/c their lives are too hectic, not b/c they were turned off of the concept.

But l'maaseh, I don't believe that there aren't enough learning-oriented women out there to form sufficient shiurim for all who are interested. The reason it's not happening is, once again, b/c it's easier to kvetch in the blog comments than to actually do the hard work of organizing a group and keeping it running.

10/25/2006 9:54 AM  
Blogger Semgirl said...

YG , Although I dont fully agree with you, I think you presented your case well, and write very eloquently...

MS...You do realize there is a major difference or should be between high school kids and married ppl with children in their thirties..

10/25/2006 10:25 AM  
Blogger yeshivaguy said...

SG - Thanks.

10/25/2006 11:22 AM  
Blogger Lakewood Venter said...

Wow! This discussion has really turned mature....

10/25/2006 12:13 PM  
Blogger Elisheva said...

Wow! SG, you really got the comments on this topic going! And that's even though I think basically everyone is still saying the exact same thing as last time we discussed this, lol!

A few points: WW, you write, "ALL women need to learn seriously and on a regular basis. This includes recent sem grads and alta bobbies and everyone in between."

This may be your personal opinion, but do you have a single source for such an idea? I thought about this, I really did, and the women I respect in life are not necessarily the teachers or other educated women who are always learning, but one of my mothers friends, my Bubby, and others who to be honest, I doubt they learn seriously, in an organized kind of way, probably for years! They have families and are busy with housework, mending, shopping, laundry, work, carpool, shidduchim, and socializing.

A woman is exempt by the torah from learning, and it doesn't say like in our day and age this exemption does not apply. It is our faith, chessed, and educating our children that will ensure the geula. And one need not learn from shiurim to educate children. Leave that kind of education to the schools. Kids have enough homework and schoolwork and like we don't need parents piling on more.

It's a mothers' faith, the way she shows her children (and her children's friends) that she lives the way the schools preach. Sure we need a solid backing, but after that, it's the middos, emunah, and how we lend an ear to others and our caring and sharing, that will make a real difference to our children and friends, not how much we learn at a shiur.

Do we have to learn? Sure. Especially the halachos we need to know in everyday life. But to say every lady needs to constantly learn like intellectual stimulating stuff is not a blanket truth. You may feel the need, and so does SemGirl, like obviously. But it is not what the women I admire most do by any stretch of the imagination.

I did the sem thing. I studied in school. I know more nach than my husband (even he'll admit that, lol!). Did that help me deal with life's nisyonos? With boys? With personal issues? With peer-pressure? NO! I wish we had less of the shiurim and more of real life teachers who have the sensibility, sensitivity, and faith that makes a true Jewish woman.

TJ, I am touched. I agree with you in principle, but I am not the right person to personify this stuff. Trust me, lol!

HNC, Ms. Shtark already responded, and so did TJ, but as a recent horny single, and now as a still young married very much in the world of nisyonos, to say what you say is so out of touch. I don't think TJ meant anything in a bad way. I think he was saying how theoretically a person who feels what you do, is just out of touch with how almost the entire world feels. Sure your personal case may be different, but like look at the goyish world and all the scandlas one after another, and like going back thousands of years it was always sex-scandals that broke apart entire empires. So like it's not exactly like if you are not a shletered yeshiva guy or girl you will not fall. People lost families, prestigious positions, and like kingdoms all cause they fell. So we can never be too careful.

I'm, way overtime, just had to comment on my friend's blog finally!


10/25/2006 4:57 PM  
Blogger wearywife said...

Elisheva- please, please, please like no more like.... like please...

Now that I've gotten that out of my system I can say that your comment is otherwise very well written. Nobody says a lady has a chiev d'orisa to learn. And I also know some wonderful ladies ( and men as well) who dont learn on a regular basis. And as I previously mentioned learning with out middos, emunah and bitochon is worthless.

However our religion is a very legalistic one. There's halachos applicable to all aspects of human endeavor. For example, I have a female friend who works in the mortgage field. She gets together with a few other female finance professionals and learns hilchos ribbis in depth. These women know more about hilchos ribbis than most men. BH they are all busy wives and mothers as well, but they feel they need this to be oisghehalten in their professional lives.

As for dealing with life's tribulations, there is no subsitute for life experience, bitochon and sachel. Positive role models are also crucial. However, we need the framework of halacha as well. We live in a much more complex world than our formothers.

YG-There are always extreme points of view. Among the people who feel girls learn too much are the neuturi karta chevra. They also think that appearing on Arab TV and shaking hands that have Jewish blood on them is preferable to zionism. BH this is not the mainstream.

10/25/2006 8:27 PM  
Blogger yeshivaguy said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

10/25/2006 9:12 PM  
Blogger yeshivaguy said...

WW - Look, it's nice of you to study my comment so closely, but really, the point regarding people who feel girls learn too much (with whom I stated I do not agree) was entirely peripheral, so I don't see any reason to get into it. And I'm certainly am not going to be shlepped from there into any kind of defense of Neturei Karta, whose relevance to our discussion is so vanishingly small as to be almost nonexistent.

I mean, I know what you're trying to do - it's called guilt by association - but I'm not about to play that game, especially when there is really no association at all.

10/25/2006 9:15 PM  
Blogger Semgirl said...

YG... I was going to say sthing along those lines, but Im glad you did it instead..

10/25/2006 11:34 PM  
Blogger Halfnutcase said...


10/26/2006 3:40 PM  
Blogger yeshivaguy said...

Sorry for what?

10/26/2006 4:17 PM  
Blogger geshmaker said...

i check out this blogfor the first time in months, and what do you know, IT'S ALIVE!!!!
first of all:WW the whole "like" thing is sooooooooo 18 months ago, get over it!
second of all, i (as usual) have to agree with YG on most of his varios points, as most of what he says is IMO correct.
lastly: for elisheva- "This may be your personal opinion, but do you have a single source for such an idea? I thought about this, I really did, and the women I respect in life are not necessarily the teachers or other educated women who are always learning, but one of my mothers friends, my Bubby, and others who to be honest, I doubt they learn seriously, in an organized kind of way, probably for years! They have families and are busy with housework, mending, shopping, laundry, work, carpool, shidduchim, and socializing."
as i was reading through all the comments this exact thought was going through my mind, i was just waiting till the end to write it out. i would like to say that you stole my thuinder, but i couldn't have said this better myself!!!

10/26/2006 5:14 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Semgirl, is THIS like your favorite topic. Like womans rights among us frummies, Shiurim for Woman, etc. You have already written about this topic a few times, please move on, you write well, but need fresh ideas, sorry for my comment, I dont intent to be rude.

10/26/2006 8:14 PM  
Blogger David_on_the_Lake said...

welcome back...
I also think it's a great idea....

once again another lakewood post turns into a street brawl...*rolls eyes*

*rolls em back*

10/27/2006 8:55 AM  
Blogger Just Passing Through said...

My goodness. That sure sparked quite a response. On a side note, did anyone else notice the "Diet Menu" listed on the flyer??

10/27/2006 12:02 PM  
Blogger tzvi5 said...

Diet Menu ..... Eat Half.... Yeah Right...

10/27/2006 12:35 PM  
Blogger yeshivaguy said...

"once again another lakewood post turns into a street brawl...*rolls eyes*

Oh please, the post was a critical one, and so deserved the response it got.

10/27/2006 1:00 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

semgirl, U asked for an idea here i go one, and i did post about it, but I am never a bit as good as you, so never mind what i wrote just check out the topic, and YOU do it your way, the right way.

Gut Shabbos!!!

10/27/2006 3:11 PM  
Blogger yeshivaguy said...

"but I am never a bit as good as you,"

Ah, heartwarming to see such anavah, and for once not misplaced!

NACh: I noticed that one of your topics is how right the internet ban is. Tell me you were being sarcastic. Please?

10/27/2006 4:15 PM  
Blogger Halfnutcase said...

i will point out to you regarding using behavior in the non-jewish world that western culture implicitly encourages boys to be extreemely promiscuous and teaches girls that boys can't help it and that they have an obligation to satisfy them, all at the same time condemning the girl as loose.

such an example is functionaly meaningless. those men and women where never taught to be responsable. (and this has been the encouraged behavior ever scince roman times, infact it came from roman standards of behavior.)

my argument is that we are silently encouraging it while not giving our children the tools to fight their basic urges and desires. That has got to stop, like now.

or do you realize that girls starving themselves (R"L) just to be thin is just another trapping of the same thing? eating also is hardwired drive, yet there are many many girls who litteraly starve themselves to death just becahse they want to be very thin. Boys will do this to when given sufficiant encouragement, although thank g-d that is extreemely rare.

the general finding is that people can do just about what ever you expect them to do. If we expect them to missbehave they will. If we do not then, suprise, they will not.

10/27/2006 4:26 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

YeshivaGuy, we shall get to that, i am new to this bloging and am spending already too much time, we shall get to that topic, and discuss it

10/28/2006 11:32 PM  
Blogger yeshivaguy said...

HNC: Have pity, stop already with the new age nonsense.

10/28/2006 11:52 PM  
Blogger Lakewood Venter said...

I thought the "diet menu- eat half " thing was cute.

10/29/2006 12:13 AM  
Blogger Semgirl said...

Actually, I thought HNC was making a lot of sense..

10/29/2006 12:40 AM  
Blogger ThinkingJew said...

HNC - You seem to have made up your mind, so I will try not to mix you up with the facts.

For the rest of us, the facts still remain that the gemara is replete with stories of amoraim who fell in this particular nisayon. let's learn to admit when we are wrong. if the gemara says that even great men can fall and misbegave, then it is probably true, regardless of the new-age garbage that says teach 'em how to cope and send 'em out in the big, bad world...

10/29/2006 1:49 AM  
Blogger yeshivaguy said...

SG: Really? I can barely decipher his gobbledegook.

10/29/2006 1:05 AM  
Blogger Halfnutcase said...

it's actualy not new age. In fact if you look at the shailos and teshuvos that's the way things traditionaly where.

there was no such seperation of men and women 200 years ago.

10/29/2006 7:45 AM  
Blogger yeshivaguy said...

"In fact if you look at the shailos and teshuvos that's the way things traditionaly where."

Yeah, right. Let's have some sources to back up those assertions, please.

10/29/2006 9:49 AM  
Blogger ThinkingJew said...

YG - Like I said, he obviously made up his mind, so please do not mix him up with the facts...

10/29/2006 3:41 PM  
Blogger yeshivaguy said...

Not at all. If he has sources, I'd like to see them.

10/29/2006 5:52 PM  
Blogger Halfnutcase said...

i know that the baal haturim writes that the custome in germany at his time was for people only to be married off, if they had not already married themselves off already. (and that kinda requires the sexes to be mixing).

honestly i doubt you read enough of the older shailos and teshuvos, alot of things went on that you probably wouldn't believe.

but more than that, find anyone who clearly rememberes prewar europe and ask them how rigidly they seperated boys and girls. The people i've asked basicaly have told me that it wasn't very rigid at all. If an unmarried boy and girl started spending a lot of time together or tried to seclude themselves then they pressured them to marry, otherwise things happened and our rabbis recognized this.

(and there are certainly cases that the baal haturim mentions of actualy assisting children in eloping, rashi as well. Also there are cases of him telling perents tough kaboodles when they tried to force their kids to marry someone other than who they desired to marry. (and that requires having met the person first, again proof that boys and girls where not rigidly seperated))

unfortunately i cannot give you page numbers but just start reading i'm sure you'll learn some interesting material. (i've done way to much reading to give you specific page numbers.)

10/29/2006 8:28 PM  
Blogger yeshivaguy said...

This is a typical HNC cop-out. First of all, the baal haturim is not a shailos u'teshuvos sefer. I mean, hello, you don't use the baal haturim on chumash to pasken shailos; that's what the Tur is for. Second of all, in fact, the separations in Europe were in general, *much, much* more stringent than ours today. In fact, there were towns in which men and women did not walk on the same side of the street. In general, even secular culture in those days and places demanded a much greater separation of the sexes than today; kal vachomer our culture. [It's true, though, that there was less silly chumrah, and women were not directed to act like silent mice. They were frum, not mute.] And finally, the cases of shailos and teshuvos can't be taken as the norm. To the contrary, they are usually the ones in which people went off the rails and there was a problem that had to be fixed.

Anyway, it's the usual thing. You make some radical statement, and claim that this is commonly found in the teshuvos sefarim. You're challenged for a source, and it's like poof; nobody's home. Same old, same old.

10/29/2006 8:52 PM  
Blogger ThinkingJew said...

It's always sad when someone is trying to have an intellectual conversation, and the only response you get is, "Everyone knows that's how it was." "It's in many seforim."

Proves a point. Yes. I just don't think it proves your point.

10/29/2006 11:49 PM  
Blogger Semgirl said...

Ok, Im going to step in and very atypical of me and have to disagree with HNC..

For the record, I vehemently, disagree with eating in seperate rooms, putting up signs walk on seperate sides of the street, dont say Good Shabbos to some one who lives on your block, because IMHO, this causes more harm than good, and isnt healthy..

However, Yoni.. We dont poskim from hearsay or rebbishe Maasehs either. If you are sincerely looking for the truth speak to your Rov or Mashpia.. Or call a Bais Horeh.. Email me if you need ph numbers for them..

10/30/2006 10:04 AM  
Blogger Halfnutcase said...

stupid. the shailos and teshuvos OF the baal haturim aka rabbainu yaakov ben asher.

(he recieved his name from the the arba turim and is thus reffered to as the "baal haturim")

10/30/2006 10:23 AM  
Blogger yeshivaguy said...

Yes, I know how the baal haturim received his name. So you're quoting a teshuvah from the Tur that says that it was usual for men and women to marry themselves off. Great. Give me a mareh makom, please.

10/30/2006 11:36 AM  
Blogger Semgirl said...

Once again my dear friend Yoni.. Sorry to contradict you, but..

I asked my husb and he told me the following.

The great heliga Rashi Hakodesh, wrote a commentary on the Gammara, Tshuvas, as well as Drush.. In fact, in many places Rashi contradicts himself, between his peirush on the Talmud and one of his Tshuvas. We only Poskim, based on how the Bais Yosef or the Tur cite Rashi..

Similar the Rambam wrote Mishneh Torah as well as, many other things. When have you heard of a Rov deciding halacha or custom based on Moreh Nevuchim (Guide for the Perplexed)..

10/30/2006 12:18 PM  
Blogger workingema said...

I dont' know... personally for me, I would go- but only if it was easily accessible. Like, if I had to drive somewhere far- fagettaboutit. If it's easy, I'll take it, otherwise- I like to relax on my lunch break. As for night shiurim- it's always my good intention, but never a reality. I am zonked by 9pm.
Good night.

10/30/2006 9:25 PM  
Blogger Michelle said...

Shoshana-good point. I feel that although the idea sounds good-how many people would show up?
I might complain about the same thing, but at the end of the day, I have tonz of schoolwork, I'd rather watch TV in my free time...blah blah. Well, you married kids before you have kids who aren't in school...i guess you don't have much of an excuse.

11/02/2006 10:27 AM  
Blogger dzleeh said...

A bit late to be commenting, I know, but I am a female, and I go to the 6:15 minyan every morning, and they follow it up at 7:00 with a daf yomi shiur. It's as simple as that. Granted, only three of us females attend, while the rest are men, but there's not even a question of the whole mixed thing. The guys barely realize we are there. And that way, you get some learning in early in the morning, before your day even starts, and you don't feel as pressured later on in the day, although it's always good to learn when you've got the chance. I know everyone has different schedules and can't necessarily do this, but I think this is one of the ways to go. If there's a will, there's a way, at any time of day (and that rhymes as well!)

11/05/2006 4:28 AM  
Blogger Semgirl said...

Dz: Welcome to the blog.. Thanks for the input. Suffice it to say, you dont live in Lakewood. I dont think they would allow that here..

11/05/2006 7:51 PM  
Blogger yeshivaguy said...

I disagree. I'm sure Rabbi Tendler would let you attend his daf yomi.

11/05/2006 8:12 PM  
Blogger dzleeh said...

Well, you're correct in your assumption regarding my whereabouts, and I have, in fact, never set foot in that place (and after all these blogs, would wonder why I would want to), so I can't pass judgment about something I haven't seen or experienced first-hand. However, since when can people STOP spiritual and moral development? We're not talking about the Greeks or the Nazis here, Y"S. These are our fellow Jews, however set in their ways they might be, and you guys just have to be set in your ways back (without turning things negative). I have been in that spot several times before, so feel that's one thing I can comment on with some authority. They didn't make that phrase, "If there's a will, there's a way" for nothing. I think you guys can do it. :)

11/05/2006 10:11 PM  
Blogger David_on_the_Lake said...

Hmmm lakewood's not that bad..

11/07/2006 1:20 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Sem, wanne be my chavrusa??

11/08/2006 3:25 PM  
Blogger Shpitzle Shtrimpkind said...

Hey SemGirl,

Finally made it out to your blog. Although I was never a Sem Girl, I have a few friends whose lives your blog depicts. It's very interesting to get inside the life of a frum girl from --- y'know, another kind of frum community.

Where the hell do you get such Jadaica Food from???

When's the next post due?

11/15/2006 8:52 PM  
Blogger Independent Frum Thinker said...

Please check out the new blog. Thank you.

11/15/2006 11:14 PM  

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