Two Upcoming Events
My husband brought home this poster and I was furious. How come any shiur, lecture, or presentation that remotely resembles learning on more than a 3rd grade level, or has the slightest bit of substance is restricted to men. To add insult to injury, at many shiurim and functions for men there are very nice refreshments at no charge, whereas virtually every single lady’s event charges at least ten dollars to every pathetic cow that walks thru the door. To be fair, often there is an elegant buffet, or an extravagant desert table, which is followed by an airhead speech or presentation that is fluffier then some of the Petit Fors served.
Legal holidays feature full-day programs for men only (of course) that entail hearty breakfasts and even more robust shiurim given by world renowned lecturers, many of whom give the same lecture for both genders in Flatbush. Recently, I asked why this is, and was told that there is no demand for it in Lakewood Ir-HaTorah, in a very condescending manner. The rationale is that nebach these poor souls have to work, let them at least have a Collel day on legal holidays. Whereas, the working women, who fund most of ‘Torah-town’’s economy are expected to use these legal holidays to catch up with cooking and housework.
I find it particularly appalling that next Monday there will be a seminar discussing real estate brokers in Halacha, for men only, when a good percentage of real-estate professionals in town happen to be women. This is a slap in the face to these hard working women.
Ironically, as we continue to preach about Tznius at every opportunity possible, both at simchas and tragedies the level of Tznius in Lakewood is going down as witnessed by the current trends in headwear and footwear that are favored by many ladies. Maybe if more learning and spiritual fortification was offered for women the degree of Kedusha, and that in turn would result in an increase in Tznius adherence.
In contrast, here is an ad for a women’s event. Notice the heavy-weight price and the light-weight content. I have a two questions on this:
1) How is it possible to have “Timeless Torah Wisdom” without Torah learning?
2) What exactly is the “Powerful Message”?
And of course, this concludes with a slide and song production entitled “Princess”
The charge is $12 for adults and $8 for students.
With all due respect to the highly impressive panel and rabonim, it seems to me that a gathering of this magnitude could be used to disseminate a great deal of Torah learning. If a woman defines herself as a Torah Jew, then all her roles in life will be defined in terms of this. With her mind sharpend and refined by Torah learning, she achieves kedusha and clarity of purpose.
posted by SemGirl | Tuesday, May 23, 2006
60 Comments:
The food at most of the women's events - for example, the YTT expo - makes the men's events look sick.
I would suggest that there is no mysogynistic conspiracy at work here, despite the obvious qualitative gap between the sexes that you've observed. As you noted, I think it is demand driven. The men are more used to the Yeshiva learning, and are closer to the Rabbonim who can give the Shiurim. The women haven't been exposed to that approach, and are probably largely satisfied with a general gathering focused more on inspiration than knowledge. But I don't think it needs to stay that way. There's no reason why you can't teach yourself, like TB suggests, or organize your own Shiurim, like MS suggests. Should you find enough like minded souls, I wouldn't be surprised if you were eventually able to form a community wide opportunity for women's continuing education. Just don't let the absence of anything satisfactory today create disappointment- it only creates opportunity.
I'm with Josh on this. There's little demand for in-depth learning among women in Lakewood. My wife used to attend the night seminary (I don't know if it still exists); she was the only one under thirty ... and the only one under sixty. The teachers were great, but no one was interested.
Sons of Israel often sponsor excellent speakers for both men and women. I've been to a couple; they were almost empty. Clearly, the women here are not interested in what you claim to be.
If learning is so very important to you, why don't you organize a shiur? That would also be a good way to see whether there's a market for it; I'd be interested to know how well you do.
I also agree with Josh. Semgirl you are clearly intellectually driven, but are you sure all of the women in the community agree with this? The ladies are only expected to catch up with the housework if that is the reality they create for themselves. View it more positively as a break, not as an insult. If this is truly in demand, then it is time to speak up.
However, I must say that I disagree that it isnt misogynist. I am frum and I love yiddishkeit but to say frumkeit isnt misogynist is just ridiculous. This is the reality. And none of you guys reading will ever understand what its like to be a girl within such a mindstructure.
Semgirl, you sre a confident, opinionated and smart girl. "Bimakom she'ein ish, tishtadel l'hiyos ish". If there's really such a need for these things in Lakewood, and I believe completely that there is, maybe you can be pro active about it? How about trying to organize the kind of shiurim that you like, with the speakers that you want? I can give you a whole list of lecturers and teachers that might be fantastic for you. If you want help organizing it, please contact me thru email- I might be able to help. I think you're totaly amazing- you have such a strong and pure desire for justice, and you sincerely wanna grow. And I think that using the kochos that you seem to have (that I picked up on reading this blog) you can make a revolution!! Bring on the women!!
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I just realized that some people are claiming that there isnt much of an interest in Lakewood for intellectual learning. That might be. But even if one is, thats enough. I live in a place where we were desperate for some womens Torah classes so I started teaching and lecturing- organizing groups all around... and of course when we started, I had 2 women, then for the first 8 months we only had about 6 women... but i kept goin and slowly but surely the word spreads and Hashem has been so kind and keeps sending me more and more women now (its been almost a year) and I already see such a positive difference in the womens' approach to learning and thinking. And I absolutely love it.
So even if you start with 2 or three others, semgirl, GO FOR IT!! You'll be so happy. Lemme know if you want some ideas of who should give the shiurim... unless you want to??
Very well written post! Being that you touched upon this on your "list" in your comment on my most recent post, I will assume that I inspired you (on some level at least) to write this post!
Glad to be of assistance.
I'm with most of the comments I guess. SemGirl obviously likes the learning, but to be honest, no, there is no great demand.
Does that mean there shouldn't be like shiurim for those ladies who do want it? No, and on this Ms. Shtark, out-of-town places like are much better than in-town. Not just Lakewood. Brooklyn and Monsey are the same I think. I know in like yerushalayim they are great with these shiurim.
But for like the major events I think you have to be open-minded enough to realize that most ladies and girls do spend most of our time like with homework/housework, taking care of siblings/children, cooking, laundry, and this is a great thing which we enjoy and love! It in no way makes us less of a person and I don't think the average guy looks down on us for it. I think frum guys and especially Lakewood guys have a deep appreciation for the wives and daughters.
If someone feels second class, like maybe they have a self-esteem problem or inner problem that they need to work out, like why they don't feel fulfilled. I really don't think most women here feel that.
So the major events would be only right to gear tham to inspiring stuff that don't take a major commitment. But sure, they should have shiurim for those that have the head, time and commitment. And while there are some, I think they are not to full because the organizers don't realize what the ladies really want.
That's my take. I also hope to post real soon (like today) on my blog.
Shalom
Well-said, and important to note. I rarely attend such events because they are often very "fluffy" and I space out during them, because they all often come down to saying the same few things over and over. I think it would be incredible to have in-depth shiurs given with textual explanations accompanying them. There were a few of these in Baltimore, and they were excellent and really helped and added to my understanding of Torah in many ways.
Howevere, I do think there is something true in the comment that there isn't enough demand for these kind of classes - that's why the fluffy events are often put together, because many do want those kind of unchallenging lectures. Maybe not to make them think, but to make them feel like they are getting some Torah learning in, which isn't a bad thing per se, but it doesn't address all women's needs.
Go for it - organize an event or shiur, start on a small-scale, and gather your friends who want that kind of thing! Good luck!
You should move to queens. My shul is run by women (from above). I know daven somewhere else (;
I agree with the previeous commants that Do it yourself shiurim is the solution.
Do your own learning by books, Tapes, and Torah Telephone System.
And serve yourself the most yummy refreshments at your own home.
"On the other hand if your complaint is that from birth you are trained to be obedient cows and NOT WANT such shuirim HENCE the lack of demand....... you may have a point"
But there's plenty of heavy-duty learning in HS and seminary, so they are raised to it. Still, once the women are married, the demand drops off.
BTW, semgirl, I resent the "cow" epithet. Speak for yourself and your family, if you wish, but my wife is not a "cow," pathetic or otherwise, even if she does enjoy light events.
and btw, I see Reb. Kaisman's name on the list u got there... man, she's awesome!!! not at all the regular typical stuff- shes the real thing. And shes brilliant and deep. Check her out. [unless when shes in lakewood she suddenly transforms to what they want there??]
"Yeshivaguy...have you ever said to Mrs. Yeshivaguy go to your shiur...I'll bathe and put the kids to bed, I'll clean up after dinner."
Many times.
semgirl, if there were shiurim for woman, would you honastly attend? I agree that there are many who would appreciate it but for some reason you never struck me as one of them. It sounds more like you like to kvetch. Join LKWD ventor with his idiotic stories about the coffee room.
BEG my email is posted on my blog profile.
the IM sn is the name..
semi you are an enigma, in your beginning posts you wrote that you wanted a guy that would hold your hand in the movies. now you marry a kollel parasite.. what kind of life did you expect. you made the bed now get laid in it.
in flatbush also, there are also many speeches only for men. It bother me too. It's not just in the Hayligeh Lakevood
Are you a man in a woman's body Semgirl?
Learning is not a nice jewish spiritual experience. It is a part of Yiddishkeit and has rules like every other part of Yiddishkeit. Women are Pottur from in-depth learning. Why should anyone use Torah in order to give women some enjoyment.
In addition, there are very few women with as much time on their hands like you. Most have things to do when they are not working.
semgirl--I thought your post was very interesting. I personally almost never get to shiurim, but if I did, I also would want quality classes that stimulated my mind and catered to me as a person- and respected my desire to learn more.
On the other hand, if such shiurim are not available, I can't help but think that there must be a reason for it. Perhaps the shiurim for women do respect the majority of the women in the community, and teach them what they want to learn. Perhaps a minority of women are not satisfied...so those women, no less important than the others, need their spiritual need and desires met. And perhaps, semgirl, you are the one to help those women -as so many have suggested.
Take a (respectful) stand. Let me know when the next shiur is, maybe I'll come in from NY!
"Precisely, becuase it's stuffed down their throat...raised to resent it
preicisely because now they dont have to, it doesnt' have shiduchi, implications or "status implications..... "
So they're damned if they do, damned if they don't, huh?
If they teach them in-depth, you say they're shoving it down their throats, and that's why they don't like it now. If they don't teach in depth, you say they're not raising girls to appreciate learning. Come on, be consistent.
"Yes, I work too, but i dont consider my job or the mundane menial chores I have to do around the house to be my role in life."
Oh, but both can be excellent paths toward spiritual growth. If a person's kavanah in working is the chesed he does with his family in supporting them, it is a holy endeavor. The same applies to "mundane" work performed around the house; it is nothing other than the most exalted chesed. "Lilmod u'lilameid" is only one half of the equation; "lishmor v'laasos" is the other half, and it requires action in the mundane world. You can't be mekayem it at a shiur.
Theres no question that all of us have the same job in this world. And that is to serve Hashem and spread His name. Being that each of us was born with different capacities, different natures, and different life circumstances, we each hafta serve Him in our own way. Some of us need more intellectual stimulation, some need to spend more time wearing the apron. But as long as our priorities are in check, we can serve G-d however it works best for us, as long as it's completely with the boundaries of Torah. Priorities being in check, obviously means that as women we are responsible for the atmosphere in the home, majority of the chinuch of the children, and all the jobs that are designed for the spouse with the 'internal track'. As long as we do what is required of us as wives and mothers, and not INSTEAD of being proper wives and mothers, the world is ours.
Just to requote what someone mentioned about the gemorah speaking about women not learning gemorah....
actually, what the gemorah really says is that a father shouldnt teach his daughter gemorah... it doesnt say that a woman CANT learn it. Now the reason a father shouldnt teach it to his daughter is bec obviously her mind is not molded to learn gemorah the way its s'pposed to be learned, and gemorah cant be learned any other way. So, obviously, the way MOST women were created, was that they dont NEED gemorah learning in order for them to do ratzon Hashem. Men do. If, however, there's an isolated case of a women who ALREADY IS DOING THE THINGS SHE IS S'PPOSED TO DO IN ORDER TO SERVE G-D, and she still needs some more stimulation, 'ma tov uma naim'. No one is stopping her.
Cubanita
Im a lil insulted that you were so busy thinking about how to answer back to me that you obviously didnt read even one word that I wrote. Because if you wouldve you would not have commented- and especially not in the prejudice way that you did. I dont have a chasidishe cell in my body. But Im an educated, intellectual, and most proudly a fully Torah observant Jewess. I think you should read my comment again and please be accurate before commenting. Thats a good rule for life, by the way.
Oh, and speaking of accuracy, they're not driving Chevy Luminas. Raise your hand frum women drivers if you drive a Honda Odyssey.
And also, why challenge the men to find the source? Go to the mishneh in Sotah, daf 20/ alef. Ben Azai says that its a mitzvah to teach women the laws of sotah, to enable her to know the laws, and therefore will refrain from being a sotah. Then, the words of Rabbi Eliezer are straight out, that 'a father who teaches his daughter Torah [sh'baal peh] he's teaching her tiflus'.Period. Which means, that of course a women hasta know the halochos pertaining to er life. But more than that is tiflus.
What's tiflus, you ask?
so the Rambam defines it as 'teaching something to someone who's unequipped to learn it'.
Rashi says it means 'immorality', and the ra"ma defines it as a 'dvar aveirah'.
The rambam is explaining that 'what she will learn will be tiflus because the reality of the Torah wont be grasped' He aslo says, as I mentioned in my original comment, that this is reffering to 'rov nashim'. If you're an exception, Id be honored to be your chavrush.
It doesn't sounds fair, indeed many women are very intersted in all kinds of Torah topics as well.
Cubanita
why are you so defensive?
First of all, Im a woman. So the Rambam, who Im not misquoting is not for my pleasure either. If you think the rambam is saying something different why dont you share it with us?
Second of all, you seem to be completely misunderstanding me, by coming back with the same claim again and again. I NEVER SAID WOMEN ARE NOT ALLOWED TO LEARN TORAH. Read what I wrote again, but without a chip on your shoulder please.
Now, if you think you understand the gemorah better than the rambam, I bow to you and kiss your toes. But being that theres a high chance that you dont, Ill continue.
Of course G-d created men and women with intelligence. You would hafta be a complete idiot to think otherwise. But He also created them with different types of intelligence. The men were given a larger dose of the type of wisdom thats called 'daas', which is a more logical and technical type and the women were given extra 'bina' which is a more intuitive kind of wisdom. We can spend 3 hours discussing this in depth if you wish, but just to sum it up, the first type would be the answer to the question "what" and the second would be the answer to the question "why".
The fact that the way women's brains were built is different than a mans DOES NOT mean that shes not as smart. Its just a different type of smartness. And gemorah learning is very factual and detailed which is much better understood and grasped by the male brain. Its not something negative. The opposite, actually. Ya know, its upsetting that women try so hard to equalize themselves to men, because, frankly, I really dont wanna lower myself to that level. ;-)
Women have tremendous powers which can only be utilized by us. If we spend our whole lives trying to be like men, we will never be like them, and we will never be like women either. What a waste. I love being a women. And I love doing women jobs. And I accept the fact that we are not cut out for gemorah learning, and therefore I get my intellectual stimulation from other seforim, and occasionally from a gemorah too, since as I mentioned previously, THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WRONG WITH WOMEN LEARNING TORAH.
Now anyone who keeps getting emotional about this rambam is just proving why women dont learn gemorah.
you know, some rabbis assert that women are obligated to learn gemorah that is relevant to them.
they also say that if a man where to learn all the things women are obligated to learn he'd be quite happy with himself and be called a talmid chacham.
that said i agree with some of the others here, start your own shiur, either teach it your self if you feel capable or find someone who can. start small and build up.
and btw there where other reasons for asserting a father shouldn't teach his daughter torah. for one women are more than capable of learning it, but they'll absorb it differently than men will, and therefore the way a man would teach it and go about it will screw the woman up. if a woman teaches it to a woman, it will work much better.
that's how i feel anyway.
(and to whom ever said something about semgirl marrying a kollel parasite instead of marrying someone who wants to hold her hand at movies; somehow from everything i know, she got both :-P)(please correct me if i'm wrong)
cubanita
Youre absolutely correct. I have no idea what tractate they learned this past week. And thats because i couldnt care less. Let Daf Yomi learn their hearts out. Theyre keeping the world standing. But I have zero interest in learning with them. Thats not my job.
So you dont wanna tell us what the rambam means? How then could you be so confident that he's being misquoted?
Also, you dont hafta be my rabbi or husband to teach me something. I like to learn things from anyone. Anyone can be the best teacher. Im sure you have nice things to offer that Ive never heard before.
Abt knowing gemorah better than the rambam... just the fact that ure claiming that the rambam isnt saying something that he clearly seems to be saying, is showing me that you think you know more. But you clarified that by saying that you dont. Its all good.
I dont like to put a number on years of Torah learning- its infinite. Torah learning is not a 4 semester course ending with a degree. Its our daily lives forever and ever, and we can learn it while walking, sitting, playing sports, eating, excercising... because we can see G-d in any place we're at.
halfnutcase-
"you know, some rabbis assert that women are obligated to learn gemorah that is relevant to them"
actually if u noticed the gemorah i quoted its straight out there. A woman DOES hafta learn the halochos that are relevant to her.
wearywife-
um- did you actually read what I wrote? I never ever said that a proper wife means being the best cook or balebuste. I do recall mentioning that each woman needs her own individual stimulation and motivation to do her job as a wife and mother the best she can, and for some ppl, yes, that means extra learning.
why does e/o insist on misquoting and understanding things the way they want to, instead of what they actually say? Gosh thats a lil frustrating.
limey, the fight of whether or not girls need to know something or not was won a long time ago by a woman named Sarah Scheneirer. We all know that Klal Yisroel would be lost by now without her. What she didn't do however, is stuff it down their throats like you've mentioned and like we get it now. Also, she made a school to answer to the intellectual needs of the woman through limud hatorah. If you happen to go to a BY school, I could attest to you that it does very little for me in that respect these days. All I ever did in school is memorize a bunch of spit back information without even being given the right to ask a question. You didn't need to understand a blessed thing, you just needed to say it, breeth it, memorize it and take the test. How stupid and useless is that? By the boys on the other hand, where even this form of learning would have some perpouse just because it's a mitzva, they do things in a much more appropriate style. Chavrusah studies and arguments over hashkafa and 'tosfos' (I don't mean tosfos perse should be studied by girls but just that level of hurvania). These are hardly fleared over in a girls school. Any discussion we ever had in class with teacher were laid over with layers and layers of 'can't say and don't discuss'. The only place I ever got a real chinuch is from my father who can discuss any topic openly with a child that the child has questions on. He says if the kids knows enough to want to know then it is an apropriate conversation to have with them. Otherwise, they will have the conversation with their immature friends and get stupid incomplete mixed up impressions on important issues which the torah does help us with. Doesn't that make sense?
limey - Do you have any history knoweledge? Sorah Schneirer was a working woman who started her school because the girls she knew were highly educated but only in other fields. She wanted them to get their intelligence through torah study. What I'm trying to say is that although it did the trick then somehow, (maybe she was a better teacher....) today it's no longer happening. There is no or very little intilect in the bais yaakov schools I went to. There is memerazation, tznius shpiels, tests, and pressure. Zeh hu zeh.
all this makes me wonder...
perhaps people like sem girl need to become the educators in schools, or mabye they need to revitalize the beis yakov schools system (haven't been. i have friends who have been to lubavitch schools, and they're similar but not the same)
i fear for the future of my own unborn children if this is all they get in the girls schools.
or just mabye people need to get together and start their own kind of school, on that values actualy intelectual discussion. you'know, like find alot of people who care and are educated enough to comment, and let them put to gether an experamental school.
cubanita
this is exactly what i mean by misquoting. youre putting words into my mouth mamala. I never said I dont learn talmud. I mentioned many times how under which circumstances a women MAY learn it. I said I didnt know what daf in daf yomi they were learning. And thats because I dont learn it with them and I dont want to. I have my own agenda based on who I am and what I need. The mitzvah of Torah learning is diff for me as a woman, than it is for the men that learn a daf every day.
How can i cut and paste the Rambam- its in the gemorah, not online. Thats where I found the source. If you can find the gemorah in its original language online, lemme know and ill post it up for you.
"And it isn't a job to learn Talmud or TORAH. It is an OBLIGATION. Maybe you aren't understand that bit."
Please remind me when I called it a job? Its not only an obligation, but the greatest source of all pleasure in this world.
Btw, cubanita, I have not intended in any way for this to turn into a shouting match or a pride thing. I am humbly trying to have a logical discussion, where my points of view are not my own, but rather based completely on the Torah, and if you or anybody would show me that Im wrong I will bow my head and retrack immediately. I really have no intention of fighting or arguing- as a matter of fact, if that was my intention, then all the Torah Ive ever learned wasnt worth a thing.
You're probly a sincere and just person with a lot to offer, but I just feel obligated to help portray the proper Torah perspective when I feel that its being misunderstood. I have absolutley nothing against you in any way.
Please dont try to 'get' me or to win. Im not trying to at all. I just wanna help clarify to others whatever Hashem has allowed me to understand of His beautiful world.
ww: sorry, whatever I posted was so long ago that I no longer have the thread.
I don't think it's only in your side of the woods, it's universal. Women's event here cost 60 dollars. Some speakers' credentials = ability to have as many kids as fast as possible.
So tell me, does more kids automatically mean more wisdom?
yea- its sad.
G-d gave us a gift thats called 'common sense' but unfortunately its not so common. There's no question that having children is a mitzvah and its a great pleasure but its NOT a mitzvah to have a nervous break down.
IN JUDAISM WE DONT BELIEVE IN HAVING CHILDREN, WE BELIEVE IN RAISING THEM.
Everything with common sense. Thats what Hashem wants from us.
just to clarify... obviously, sometimes our 'common sense' needs to be mixed with the common sense of our rav, since decisions like how far apart to space our children should be given tremendous importance, but must be decided with an authentic rav, based honestly upon our emotional and psychological build up.
The simplest way to avoid all this trouble is to become an atheist- hey, just saying is all.
shlomo, i'll trade you anytime. entertaining bored kids is part of their chinnuch and we're not allowed even interupt that for the building of the bais hamikdash.
i'll trade torah learning for that anytime ;-)
and women, as mentioned are chayiv in learning torah, that torah which they find usefull. (and that's the guideline. if they can actualy make usefull lessons for life out of, for instance, laws of sacrifices or other similar sections they don't need in the regular sense, they can learn that to, and your obliged to have them taught.)
Ok I am going to attempt the gargantuan task of answering comments. Hope to complete it over the next few daya..
TB: That’s a good start. But there is noth like one on one or active involvement. Would you go to a doctor who just read a lot of books. How about a teacher is self-taught.
WW: Thanks I appreciate that.
YG: that’s a exception most of the ladys event have scaled back a lot in terms of food..But you are like SO Israel has great shiurim..
Lola…actually that’s why Yentl came to America..
MS: good idea but OOT there is interest …most of the ladies I know just want to talk about aking sheva brocha and fruit platters..
Josh..I would definitely agree with you. But once again it’s a different world where you live.
FG…that is exactly my point..
IA…thanks for the vote of confidence…Id appreciate if you could email me any ideas..
MYOB…it all comes down to priorities
Elisheva ….now Im confused … you are right about the level of demand and what most of these ladies value.. But a lot of what I wrote was culled from your emails..Did I totally misunderstand you , or have you just had a change of heart since you got married..
Semgirl
Ill be happy to email some ideas to u. But I just wanted to tell you something important and interesting that I just heard.
You familiar with the Ohr Nava girls learning program in Flatbush? So the founder and main teacher, Rabbi Wallerstein was recently having a personal dilema. He's become a bit too busy. Between running this huge, successful girls learning program and his boys yeshiva, and being an 8th grade rebbe, and his business, and of course lets not forget his family... he was just ready to give something up. So he spoke to a renowned gadol b'yisroel, and guess what his answer was?
WHATEVER YOU DO, DO NOT GIVE UP THE GIRLS. THEY DESPERATELY NEED YOU.
Apparently your need for learning is recognized and acknowledged. Now we just hafta address it actively.
illegal alien - KIU! I like the way you've been dealing with that dafnik skitzophrenic! Halfnutcase - If you like learning better then taking care of bored kids then I hope your unborn children have a great skitzophrenic dad as well! Someone has to take care of them!On the other hand weary wife, if you ever listened to a shiur maybee you wouldn't be so weary when it came time to play with your kids!
Semgirl didn't say anything about gemora learning, she sais she wants something intillectual in her life. Halfnutcase, I agree with you that our kids need stuff that the schools don't offer, have no fear, that's why you'll be their mother!
i'm having a hard time supressing the giggles.
while i do learn i prefer taking care of kids. (although i'd hate to have no time to research topics, it's a great stress relief)
(just to make that clear)
Gosh, I am not even sure what I could have written that you totally misunderstood. I don't even remember like ever talking about this stuff.
I do have lots of issues with the schools and teachers here, but not the same ones. I am not for major intellectual shiurim for girls. I do not think most of us want or need them. But sure the ones who do should be catered to and not neglected.
My issue mainly in a nutshell is that we are just not being related to. Teachers are like so out of touch and in denial with what we are thinking, feeling, experiencing, etc.
No time to get into it now, but that's maybe what you are referring to?
Shalom
Elisheva…what I meant is you once said that your parents and the schools are always forcing Tznius down your throat. Slits, hemlines, this skirt is not good, those shoes arent. This top is too tight or too bright. Now that you are married, I wonder if your mother had you darken the part on your Sheitl.
I remember you mentioning that this over-emphasis on Tznius isn’t good. It makes the girls rebellious, and it isn’t healthy or normal for men to be constantly thinking about woman’s clothing. If they would increase the quality of learning for the girls the level of Kedusha go up and as a result the Tznius would improve
Semgirl - The first paragraph is stuff I said. Yes. The second is not. I guess that is how you feel would solve the problem. I guess like I said, this is in keeping with your nature and need for learning.
Personally I don't think that is what would help most girls. Kedusha won't go up because now loads of girls are like horverning over a Ramban or whatever. That is not what I think our calling is and will not give most of us, at least I can speak for myself and the friends I know, that much real satisfaction.
What I think is that like tznius has to be real, not forced. It is like way more than rules and regulations, and also making up chumros and going to extremes just turns everyone off. Also if the teachers have like zero idea how hard it is for us because of styles, peer-pressure, boys, crushes, whatever, they can not relate and give us a feel for the kedusha we really crave deep down.
I guess for you the answer would be more learning, and I can't argue if that is what would do it for you. But I just don't feel that is the need or answer for most of us girls.
Shalom
i think on that level, (as an out side observer and a boy who admitedly is around and gets along with girls) that it should be some of both. instead of obsessing over tznius at every one of these functions (if semgirls accusations are completely accuate) then i think that mabye they should be varying their insperational talk, and adding nice points to it, and also teaching all kinds of things at them.
i know the rabbi here has a rule about his sermons, namely that in every sermon he includes some novel interesting point, he makes sure that the base of it is applicable and usefull to everyone, and a handfull of other rules to make sure everyone walkes away with something usefull.
for some people, and evidently your self, you need intelectualy stimulating information, and veried information at that. this should be available for people like you, evidently alot of the girls don't much care for it, but i think that it would be nice if they could very their content so that they could always have new lessons in all areas of life.
some people need to remain simple.
Semgirl:
why is it that whenever my Rav gets up to speak, which is not often and usually after davening since i daven in a very "yeshivishe" minyan after about two minutes someone has to get up and close the mechitzah all the way (the ezras nashim is a separate room that can be closed off completely) so that the noise from thr women talking will not disturb?
SouthernYid:
a) The Rov's sppeches are given in very Yeshivish-speak so the women can't follow what hes saying, or hes just not a captivating speaker.
b) many shuls I have been in, the men are the same way. They come to shmooze duiring Daverning, Torah leining, speeches, etc..
Kvetcher.. I don’t see your point ..the two aren’t mutually exclusive. And I believe I did say that on several occasions that the blog isn’t done in real-time. When I was much younger and immature I liked boyfriends and movies. Now I am much older and married to learning guy, what don’t you get.
M4U…“Hysterical. Are you now giving mussar to the ladies of lakewood? “
If the stiletto-heeled strappy shoe fits..I guess. Seriously, it was just an observation, not necessarily Mussar..
Michelle..I am aware this is relevant to any Yeshivish community, but I live in Lakewood so I was discussing what I see going on here.
Limey…“why is it that the only one who was able to describe a body part was rabbi falk and the women speakers hem and haw and beat around the bush?”
I was wondering about that myself. In a similar vein, how come you were able to straight out ask that, and I felt extremely uncomfortable thinking about that, let alone writing it.
Interestingly if you read his book, he seems to know more about hosiery then any store I have gone to.
Shoshana..Thanks for the support. If I did organize a shiur, you would definitely be a guest lecturer..
Limey…unfortunately, you are right ..That’s precisely what I am addressing… The level of demand exists because the Seminaries do such a wonderful job of indoctrinating the girls rather than inculcating a love of learning in them. Neve is a notable exception. That’s why they would get my Maasar money.
Nuch a Chossid.. Sounds like a plan, but then whats the point of living in Lakewood or any large frum community. Just live in Hicksville, Tennessee and do everything in your house.
Ileg Alien…I happen to like Jill Kaisman’s tapes. But it comes back to know your audience. I heard tapes of Rabbi AC Feuer speaking in Florida on a Graduate school level, so I was excited to see him live in Lakewood. What a disappointment, I thought I was in playgroup, lol..
RNF….It seems like you are the one venting here.. As a matter of fact, I do attend the shiurim that are given all the time, so you are just saying motzi shem ra about me. I guess the ‘frummy’ part is just a screen-name…
MYOB… “I don't find cooking to be grunt work. I love to cook. My husband helps out a lot with bathing, cleaning for Shabbos, washing laundry, cooking supper (ok, scrambled eggs or pasta, but I didn't have to do it!). We work together, which is important “
And let me guess, you put a tooth under your pillow and the tooth-fairy left you a dollar...
Okee...obviously its supply and demand.. Dont when I start one I'll be sure to send you an invitation.
i don't know what goes on lakewood, but i am surprised..in my community, crown heights,they are shiurim and farbrengens for women every night. You should really start them.its amazing and inspiring to learn and gain!
Chumbum... Well obviously. I read many Chabad books and have lots of friends in Lub. I think they are the most pro-women Orthodox group.
Actually, I am considering going to classes offered by Chabad of Manalpan..
Thanks for commenting.
I understand your concern but I see this all the time. I think it's nice to learn on the phone with a chavrusa when you can.
Nice to see you, Eishet. You are a prime example of trying to live in the 21st century with 19th century values. Eishet, you didnt grow up it in the Shtetl. Bh, you are extremely bright and have an advanced secular education, without solid learning to compliment that, it recipe for extreme danger.
Eshet,
"I was raised being told that Gemora is for men. Needless to say I don't believe that because I'm told to, but because I really believe it myself."
Interesting. So why do you believe that?
Semgirl, you really should consider going there, i am feeling so bad that their are really young ladys like myself out there who are missing out on so much. I learn all the times, shiurim, with my friends, our school organizes it its unbelivable. Don't let yourself be stuck behind the shadows, women have brains and heads too. Go to manalapan their are great shluchim their and they have great classes!
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