SEMGIRL

Hi, I was just your typical 19 year old Seminary girl in South Jersey (if you don't know where I mean, you are probably on the wrong blog). We all have nisoynos, challenges, and experiences, both positive and negative. Here is where I have decided to share some of them.

Name:
Location: Lakewood, New Jersey, United States

Wednesday, February 01, 2006

Blog Friends



Ok, lots to discuss. First off Mazel Tov to Elisheva and her Chosson. May they share many , many years of Simcha together. Its amazing how close you can become in Blogland. For all of you, that are curious out there, I only know Elisheva by email. However, I feel happier for her than I have ever felt for any of my real world friends. I would really love to meet her, but we will see what happens. You see, on the one hand, it would really be great to finally see the face behind the hundreds of emails, of which I shall always cherish each and every one of them. On the other, maybe we couldn’t be as open and share as much if we knew each other in real life, especially in Lakewood.

What I like most about email and blog relationships is that since you don’t what anyone looks like or see their annoying quirks and mannerisms, you aren’t distracted by it and your entire personality comes out . This can be good and bad. For example, some boys who comment on my blog and seem to be real jerks , after you get to know them via email are incredibly sweet (you know who you are) . Conversely, others seem very cool and fly at first, then turn out to be major DORKS…

I have a very close email friend in Toronto, whom I know is very attractive. If I knew her in real life, there would probably be an intense jealousy-rivalry thing going on, but thru the wonders of cyberspace we have incredible chemistry.

In regards to my Shidduch. Yes, we still are dating, But I don’t move as fast as Elisheva, and don’t plan to. I hope to write some detailed narratives of our dates in the future. Interstingly, we have the opposite situation in regard to the blog. I showed him my blog, and he was incredulous. “You mean you got 300+ comments and you don’t have ads, are you nuts ? “ . Since I am a real novice to HTML code, it doesn’t look so pretty yet. But I promise, I will try to make it look much more aesthetic as soon as I learn more.

He actually, gave me about a dozen ideas to write about. But, I am going to take it on a day to day basis., as I really don’t want to completely surrender my uniqueness and individuality to a guy, no matter how wonderful he is.

In other news, I was elated to see my blog made the list recently on esefer..

Oh and one final point.. Simple patent leather pomps, nude hosiery, stylish navy blue skirt fashionably below the knee with a with white trim, white ruffled blouse, with blue tailored jacket, hair in a curly wave. Very conservative, yet tastefully applied makeup..
You’re the next contestant on NAME THAT SEMINARY !!!!

183 Comments:

Blogger bmgbochur said...

am i the first to post??
wow

2/01/2006 1:54 AM  
Blogger bmgbochur said...

ok what should i say?
sg, was it me who you were reffering to? im wondering??

and i wish you lots of mazel with your date, we need another blog mazel tov.

2/01/2006 1:56 AM  
Blogger Pragmatician said...

Congrats for getting listed although I have no idea of what that blog is about. But will check it out.
I agree with what you mean about the meeting in person, I have very high opinions on some of the bloggers around the net. It would be a shame to have these images dashed by getting to know the 'real ' person with all his/her flaws and all. On the other hand perhaps a lifelong ' real' friendship can be established by meeting in person, but it's a risk.

2/01/2006 4:17 AM  
Blogger Elisheva said...

So I made it to a special Mazel Tov mention on my friend, the famous SemGirl's post! Really thanks so much.

Yea, we moved pretty fast. I was sort of caught by surprise and he was too, but there really were little issues and these things do generally go faster in our circles. Take your time. Don't do anything before you feel ready.

You also hit the point of what I kept thinking, how some people you get to know here you just get certain warmth and feelings you don't have with people you know so casually in real life. In real life I think you have to know people much better before you develope those feelings. As you said, I guess a lot has to do with all the silly things and jealousy that gets in the way, which we dom't have here, because we never saw each other.

And if I'm right about 'your friend up North', oh, I didn't realize she was so beautiful too! I guess to go together with her beautiful personality.

Shalom

2/01/2006 8:32 AM  
Blogger ms. shtark said...

nice post....wink!

2/01/2006 9:06 AM  
Blogger Y. W. 2 said...

are you guys doing the shomer negiah thing? if yes than how did you show him this blog

2/01/2006 9:28 AM  
Blogger jewish philosopher said...

I'm really glad that feel comfortable sharing your blog with the man you're dating. I think openess like that is good sign!

2/01/2006 9:35 AM  
Blogger Mata Hari said...

semgirl -
First of all, i'd like to say this was a very nicely written post.

Based on my own experiences blogging, I see that people get to "know" you at a much deeper level than many of the people I see in person on a daily basis, where we keep all our conversations casual and superficial. Your guard's not up. You don't worry about boring someone or how they'll perceive you.
I think it's great that you've shared your blogworld with your guy. I would do the same -- or at least I would tell the guy that I blog - I might wait a while until I actually give him access to the site :)
Good luck with the courtship.
MH

2/01/2006 9:48 AM  
Blogger Y.Y. said...

semgirl
great decision on showing your blog to your guy i admire your openness

2/01/2006 12:17 PM  
Blogger FrumGirl said...

Hey SG... Sorry I havent written, will get to it soon, IYH. Im glad to hear that you are still dating this guy... sounds promising!

I don't have much to say about the BLog friend thing as I am new to it and still naviating my way through. All I can say is I am very careful with it. We will see how it goes...

OK, so I have no clue as to which Sem it is... enlighten us!

2/01/2006 1:39 PM  
Blogger groinem said...

It is clear that the system of dating is made more for the fun of it than for any real purpose. If a couple goes out three times and basically doesn't see a problem marrying each other (obviously, illnesses and problems would have been checked out before meeting at all)I believe the chances of the marriage working out afterwards are equal to the chances of a marriage of a couple who really know each other before getting married. It may be harder to give up the actual comfortable feeling of marrying someone you are used to but that is just a feeling and not connected to the reality of the way the marriage will look like. I hope this will push you into making a decision quicker.

2/01/2006 1:42 PM  
Blogger LakewoodWorkingGuy said...

The last poster beat me to it. What is the point of dating for so long? What do you expect to find out about him that you dont know already? The goyim say that they date for a while just to test out the sexual chemistry, which is quite a silly idea because without a permanent bond the guy/girl are just treated like they are disposible.

2/01/2006 2:20 PM  
Blogger Shoshana said...

Glad to see you are doing well and still dating the guy - hope everything continues to go along the right course. And I think you should date until you are comfortable about making a decision. If it takes some time to feel right, then that's fine - you have to do what is best for you, not everyone else.

2/01/2006 2:22 PM  
Blogger bmgbochur said...

first off:
its hard for me to name the sem, as i have no idea what any of the things that you described are!! maybe if i saw a person dressed that way i would be able to guess a sem!!!

groinem, & lwg:

yes after a 3rd date, one probably has an idea if they have an interest in marrying them. However it all depends on how much information was received to begin with, if you pull a fbi criminal record and ask for his fingerprints and a hair sample for a DNA, then yes, get married after the 3rd date.
But for most other people, i just met him/her for the first second and third time, and im sposto make a decision to live the rest of my life with them?
I also think (imho) that dating over a spread out period, is healthier for the relationship (you guys can argue) but it builds up a wanting to see each other, and helps the relationship grow.

BB

2/01/2006 3:30 PM  
Blogger Limey2001 said...

BB, it takes you 3 dates to get warmed up????? sparks should be flying by 3 dates...jk

As far as name the sem you're right you need to see them on malchei yisrael ...walk the walk etc to be able to guess the sem ashort discription could never do it

2/01/2006 3:56 PM  
Blogger LakewoodWorkingGuy said...

Dating over a long period of time can have a bad effect on a relationship and can definitly terminate one. During this period either party might catch on to an idiosyncrasy of the other and it will bug them enough to end the relationship. But after marriage these little quirks become cute and the couple loves eachother more due to this uniqueness,

2/01/2006 4:23 PM  
Blogger Halfnutcase said...

hope things go well with the boy.

as for everything else, i really don't know what to say, other than that sometimes seeing and speaking to someone over a long period of time can reveal personality quirks that might other wise not show up. sometimes bad mannerisms can be covered up or avoided in the short term but as you grow more comfortable with a person things just get alot more natural, and things that might otherwise not show up (for much better or worse) may begin to see light. for instance if someone is akward they might become a little warmer after alot of dates, or someone who may seem really sweet at first might start to make some really callous comments and take it all for granted.

i don't really know but these are just my thoughts. people can fake themselves for 3 dates easily, and every one is well aware how well undesireable secrets can be kept by family for fear of tarnishing shidduchim, besides in most of those cases it's better to let the couple feel out those issues on their own, for all you know their personalities may mesh so well that it becomes like not a problem

2/01/2006 4:23 PM  
Blogger Limey2001 said...

SG aren't or were'nt you afraid that he may dump you and then reveal your ID?

2/01/2006 5:16 PM  
Blogger bmgbochur said...

I would take it that sg, has enough brains about that, and if she showed him the blog, she really does trust him- which is very good.

I dont think anyone would ruin someone else’s blog or anything even if they get dumped by them, or dump them. And LIMMEY, if he rats on her, she knows exactly who did it, and good luck for him ever getting married!!!!

2/01/2006 6:42 PM  
Blogger Elisheva said...

About the dating time, to wait for EVERYTHING is not smart. My Bubby always says a person is never sure until after 120. But there are other things that you have to see and sometimes it takes longer and sometimes less. it depends on personality, how complicated the person is, how open or shy they are, etc.

I was given what I think is good advice once. I was told to date as long as I felt I needed it to clarify things I felt I needed to know. Then I was told that AFTER the engagement, too much is unhealthy because of all those reasons people said, like knowing TOO much, quirks, whatever, things that are small but can turn you off if you are not married yet.

Shalom

2/01/2006 6:56 PM  
Blogger Semgirl said...

BMG-B… yep you are #1 this time, and I even emailed Elisheva at the usual time she is online, before posting , along with 2 other friends.

Prag…you are right a year or do ago I met one or two girls I used to IM all the time, and it was a big disappointment. They were very normal online, and CREEPY in person.

Shev…” generally go faster in our circles. “ no offense my dear friend but are these different circles then Rov Bick and the Heiliger Manchester Rosh Yeshiva ZT”L , who were very adamant about being comfortable with the person you are seeing.

SW ….. Huh …. ???

Jphil… you are a thousand percent right..

MataH… Thanks , I agree we are very comfortable . It wasn’t such a big deal actually, because he is a big supporter of the Hirhurim and Chidushim blogs. He feels this is a good blog for girls, but I have to tone down some the unTzniusdik stories.

FG… Thanks I will email you..

Groinem and LWG… You may have a point, however I heard on a Pesach Krohn tape that A big Godol said six dates should be the max.. Rov Bick, vehemently disagreed and will not be Mesader Kidushin if the couple went out less then 10 times. When asked about the other Godol, he said “Ir Ken Dus Zoggin, Ir iz a Mesader Kidushin, Ich Been Leider A Mesader Gittin “

Shoshana…. Thanks for the support..

HNC… It helps if you have a good Rov or Mashpia to talk things over during the dating process..


Limey….. Am I glad I am not dating you.. Would you do something like that to another Yid… One thought for you…. Pirkei Avos… Hillel saw a skull floating on the river and said because you drowned others you were drowned……..

2/01/2006 7:10 PM  
Blogger Jewboy said...

There is no set formula for how long a couple should date. It depends on the people involved and their needs. I think that in our times it's better to err on the side of waiting a little bit. With the complexity of personalities today, it is best not to go too far too fast. Certainly, there are exceptions. Often one party is ready to get engaged before the other. In that case, the one who is ready must have patience, and if it's meant to be it'll happen. Yes, there is a certain amount of leap of faith involved. But I've seen way too many broken engagements and I think rushing it can be a big mistake.

2/01/2006 8:38 PM  
Blogger jewish philosopher said...

I think Shlomo Waxman's intention is that if you are shomer negiah with your current friend, how are you explaining to him some of the more personal postings on your blog [like Yossi with the movie, for example]?

2/01/2006 8:45 PM  
Blogger ms. shtark said...

jewboy, i agree with you totally. definitely one should not date for too long. at some point, there will no longer be a point to dating and then its time to get engaged and then like elisheva mentioned, i believe that the engaged couple should not be talking and seeing each other 24/7. it is not healthy for the relationship. the only way it can progress is then through marriage.

2/01/2006 8:51 PM  
Blogger Semgirl said...

JPhilop.... Well, obviously I shared more of my colorful past with him than I have on the blog. If he was the very judgemental type we wouldn't continue to see each other..

2/01/2006 8:53 PM  
Blogger JewishBiFemme said...

I wish you good luck sem! Nice post! Being open can be a great thing! Good for you! lol interesting picture no face?

2/01/2006 9:11 PM  
Blogger Raziel said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

2/01/2006 10:20 PM  
Blogger Raziel said...

Electric eyes of pure uncontained desire by the blue of the flame will never be the same for they lock horns with each name without any shame of their past.

2/01/2006 10:21 PM  
Blogger David_on_the_Lake said...

Sem...Good to read updates on your life once in awahile. You were one of my inspirations to start my own blog.
Keep up the good work :-)
D

2/01/2006 10:28 PM  
Blogger Vexed said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

2/01/2006 11:50 PM  
Blogger Vexed said...

Take it from someone with a broken engagement - youd trade dating FOREVER instead of doing the standard 6, 8, even 10 weeks and THEN having the skelatons come rolling out of the closet... Then youre faced with really hard decisions and you wonder about shidduch dating in the first place

2/01/2006 11:54 PM  
Blogger Elisheva said...

I didn't realize there was a usual time I was online!

And I don't see how what I wrote seemd to contradict that you must be comfortable with the person. You definitely do! I just think that tends to happen quicker in some circles than in others. Probably because peopel who are pretty shallow (for lack of a better word) or just don't have very complex lives, can figure each other out quicker. But if that for whatever reason is not the case by someone, they should like for sure wait till they are good and ready. But that still doesn't mean there will ever be a gurantee.

Shalom

2/02/2006 12:22 AM  
Blogger Lvnsm27 said...

Hatzlacha;

Looking forward to reading more.

2/02/2006 3:09 AM  
Blogger Mata Hari said...

groinem - sorry, but i think that's just absurd.
hnc had it right.
i've heard of a lot of broken engagements recently (not to mention the people who stay engaged and push through with the wedding even though they're unhappy) - and i suspect that that's because people are just getting to know their chosson/kallah during the engagement, instead of during dating, which is what dating is for. as semgirl said, certain rabanim have insisted on 10 or more dates at a minimum, and i think that's healthy and makes sense. you have the rest of your life with that person. what does it matter if you take a couple of months at the outset to make sure you're a good match? why does there have to be one standard for everyone?

2/02/2006 7:39 AM  
Blogger jewish philosopher said...

Semgirl, I'm sure you have now aroused a little curiosity with your last comment, but probably it's better to keep some things just between you and your new friend.

It's sounds like you have a lot in common with this young man and that's really great. Just don't jump the gun with him... Remember, you're still not married.

2/02/2006 9:55 AM  
Blogger Limey2001 said...

SG- I see I was taken out of context, I'm not the type to rat anyone out for anything. #2 I'm not available
#3- I've seen alot of broken marriages /engagements where spite is the name of the game
PS. I have a couple of mishnayos for you 1- he've dan ess kol adum lekaf zechus (me) 2- the begining of your skull quote say v'al tomar davar sheh ee efshar le'shmo'a sheh sofo le'heshama (you and your blog although not by me or someone like me) 3- eizhehu chochom haro'eh ese hanolad (not to be confused with eizhehu chochom halomeid mekol odom... which would be apt too)
I'm just more cautious and less trusting of people

2/02/2006 11:34 AM  
Blogger Limey2001 said...

Bmgb- you are naive, if he breaks up and lets "slip" to a couple of his friends who announce it to the world, he gonna be blacklisted????!!!
If anything she's gonna get "blacklisted" for having a blog (this is closeminded lakewood after all)

2/02/2006 11:41 AM  
Blogger Limey2001 said...

sg- PPS i do wish you lots of mazal and hatzlocho with your dating and blogging and look foward to good news and good posts

2/02/2006 11:42 AM  
Blogger geshmaker said...

BMG-B: for someone who seems pretty desperate himself (re:all the sucking up to the girls), i would take my own words to heart. because if anyone ever finds out who YOU are, an allegedly serious yeshiva guy IN LAKEWOOD,
(who in one of his comments claimed to have only gone to ben yehudah ONCE in all his time in israel, but more on that later)
who spends more time online blogging and emailing (primarily with single girls) then he does in the B"M..........
"and good luck for him ever getting married!!!!"

i fully understand that after a long day in yeshiva a guy needs an outlet, but how about playing ball, or following sports, or any of the other time-consuming relaxing activities that don't entail opening your life to a world that all the gedoilem say is ossur.
on another note not entirely unrelated to the rest of this comment. in your profile you write that you "CAN"T listen to non-jewish music, wonder why???!?"
i'm personaly wondering how does listening to non-jewish music differ from the internet with regard to a reason not to listen to it. in my opinion listening to non-jewish music can have a lot less bad hashpa'ah on one's ruchnius then all the shmutz that one encounters online??

2/02/2006 12:34 PM  
Blogger specialx2 said...

Hey Sem-Girl! Thanks for your update! I love your blog, as well as your friend's Elisheva's blog! I'm an unmarried girl too, so I can identify with all of your writings and thoughts! Thanks! I enjoy it!
BMG - you want another mazal tov? Who will be left for you, AHEM. JUST KIDDING

2/02/2006 1:04 PM  
Blogger Semgirl said...

Geshmaker....now I am totally confused.. So why are you here...Not that I dont totally appreciate your input and comments. I am just curious.

2/02/2006 2:16 PM  
Blogger geshmaker said...

why am i where?

...on the internet?
because in todays day and age virtually any business needs the internet to survive. now once i'm sitting at my desk, and i'm hooked up to the web, when i have a couple of minutes i like to check up on stuff. (e.g. sports, news, private email, & blogs)

...on a blog?
i guess it's a combination of curiosity, and voyeurism. it's interesting to see what other people think, and how they perceive themselves. sometimes i can't help but laugh at the stupidity and hypocrisy of some people. i try to keep in mind that since it is ananonymous blog the person might just be putting it on (like for the show), however sometimes when you see how consistant these people are you realize it isn't a facade, and they really mean it. and sometimes i actualy appriciate when someone writes something smart, articulate and thought out, and actualy sounds like an intelligent human being. and sometimes i myself write something off the cuff, and not very thought out. just spur of the moment, & just for the heck of it. and you know what? some people just don't get it.

however i don't think it's such a far stretch to question the sincerity of a yeshiva guy who spends a good chunk of his waking hours in front of a computer, online, with all the nisyonos and temptations that the wonderful internet has to offer.

2/02/2006 2:41 PM  
Blogger Limey2001 said...

Wow geshmaker, i couldn't have said it better... great post ;)

2/02/2006 2:52 PM  
Blogger Limey2001 said...

Posted on Yeshivaworld, you gotta laugh, then cry
BIG QUESTIONS:
I have a serious question to ask the oilam.

As many of you know, the Lakewood "FREEZER" is opening up in approximately one week.

For those of you who are wondering what the "FREEZER" is, I will give you a brief explanation. When boys come to learn in BMG the Hanhola does not want there to be hefkeiros with boys coming there with the intention of getting married right away and shter the z'man. So they instituted the "FREEZER". This means that if a boy arrives in BMG after Succos he can't start dating until Tu Bisvat (or according to some poskim, the "Shevua Sh'chal Bo"!!). There is one loophole and thats if the boy is in fact dating a BEFORE he arrives at BMG he can place the s name into an envelope and if and when he gets engaged they open up the envelope and make sure it's the same name. [What would happen if a boy would Chas V'sholom get engaged to a DIFFERENT , I have no answer for].

Now this coming Sunday night, Reb Yehuda Jacobs Shlita, one of the Chosheva BMG Masgichim will be giving his twice a year "shmooze" to all the boys who will be exiting the freezer on dating tips. They include where to go, where not to go, how to act etc. It's a very nice thing.

Now comes the kicker.

As most of you know, this Sunday night is Superbowl Sunday.

So I have a few questions.

Where will the oilam be, at R' Jacobs Shiur? Or a Superbowl party? Or at the Superbowl itself? Perhaps some guys will come to the Shiur during the "Halftime Show"? Or maybe R' Jacobs will be giving his own Halftime Show?

2/02/2006 2:54 PM  
Blogger Limey2001 said...

what do the single s think about the "freezer"?

2/02/2006 3:01 PM  
Blogger specialx2 said...

Limey - Single guys, or girls?

2/02/2006 3:02 PM  
Blogger geshmaker said...

SG- if you "totally" appriciate my input............here is some:
careful with the full disclosure dating. especially if you are sincere about having changed your own ways. do you want the guy you are dating to know EVERYTHING? and are you sure you want to marry a guy who is OK with everything? i don't mean to beat a dead horse. however, the yossi story, whether true or just a figment of your over-sexed imagination, was some very heavy stuff. i was friends with allot of "with it" guys back in my day and even they would have been a bit cautious about a girl with stories like that.
remember that you are still only dating. as much as you 2 like each other it is still only at the "dating" stage. (i hope ;) )
in my very limited experience there is no such thing as "love" at first sight. there definitly is "attraction" and "infatuation" at first sight. but love is something built over the course of a relationship through mutual respect and other things that i can't put into words at the moment.
don't ruin your chance at "love" just to enhance any current "infatuation".

2/02/2006 3:03 PM  
Blogger geshmaker said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

2/02/2006 3:07 PM  
Blogger geshmaker said...

during the "halftime show"?!?!
what, and miss a chance to see a possible mick jagger "wardrobe malfunction"?
;)
MOST of the guys skipping seder for the superbowl know nothing about the game and are going just for the commecials and the halftime show.

2/02/2006 3:09 PM  
Blogger geshmaker said...

i don't think single guys find the freezer half as annoying as this stupid "word verification" code you have to put in to comment on this blog.
though on a serious note, as graduate of the "freezer" and not someone who "beat"the freezer, it was fine. you actualy get to learn a little with a semi-clear head for a few months before the fun starts. and anyone who can't handle what is essentualy a 2 1/2 month break (because you can start the zman with one name and start dating rosh chodes if you don't get engaged after a couple of dates and take a few weeks then they can't prove you "broke" the freezer.) should relax a little and try to keep his pants on.

2/02/2006 3:17 PM  
Blogger Limey2001 said...

both

2/02/2006 3:40 PM  
Blogger geshmaker said...

SG Wrote:
"For example, some boys who comment on my blog and seem to be real jerks, after you get to know them via email are incredibly sweet (you know who you are) . Conversely, others seem very cool and fly at first, then turn out to be major DORKS…"

bmgb wrote:
" ok what should i say?
sg, was it me who you were reffering to? im wondering??"

-what do you mean by that? you obviously can't be the blogging "JERK" because all you do in write nicey, nicey, kiss-up sweet stuff. and i'm assuming you 2 never met, so.......why would she think your a dork?
or you just couldn't think of anything intelligent to write but HAD to be first (yay!!!).
next time be second.

2/02/2006 3:46 PM  
Blogger Dave J. said...

Let me "name the sem": Messilos.
I think you (semgirl) and Shev shouldn’t meet, you most probably will find that you are completely different and it will end up being very occurred. Probably it is best for you 2 to keep your friendship online

2/02/2006 4:19 PM  
Blogger Mata Hari said...

limey, geshmaker, et al:
has it ever occured to you that semgirl could have dated this guy starting a few months ago and is already engaged? or some other variation of the truth?
she's not going to coincide her tales with events happening in the real world, if she doesn't want you all to read about her on onlysimchas.

you should all stop knocking bmgbochur so much - you just come off as jealous :)

2/02/2006 4:38 PM  
Blogger geshmaker said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

2/02/2006 5:06 PM  
Blogger geshmaker said...

LMAO

2/02/2006 5:06 PM  
Blogger geshmaker said...

yes this has occured to me.
did it occur to you that i never intended for her to listen to my advice. she doesn't know me and should not care what i say or think.
with that in mind, what i wrote was also general advice for anyone who happens to be in the parsha now.

2/02/2006 5:14 PM  
Blogger Jewboy said...

All I can say is that a Mick Jagger and/or Keith Richards wardrobe malfunction is truly the last thing I want to see.

2/02/2006 6:17 PM  
Blogger geshmaker said...

JB-
well you obviously follow sports and don't fall into the category of yeshiva guys i very much generalized about before.

2/02/2006 8:16 PM  
Blogger Josh said...

SG - I'm glad I finally have an opportunity to jump in! I'm glad to hear your Shidduch is still working out. You guys definitely sound like you are good for each other. It seems you both have an appreciation for living in two worlds at once. I think it's great that you showed him the blog - both in the sense that you are confident enough to reveal to him what you've told us, as well as that hashkafically you both are on the same page with your "online" life. As far as how long people should date before deciding, I think it's simple. Keep dating until you have a decision that you're comfortable with. Feel free to share with us whatever you find appropriate. We just want to hear good news, whatever it is, whenever it is!

I tried to name the Sem, but I have to admit to the same problem as BMG- I had no idea what most of those fashion terms meant. I guess I'm a visual learner - I have to see it to know it. Although I must admit, that I played the "Modern" version, which I guess is a different set of schools, and you're guessing based on gym shoes vs. sandals vs. Uggs vs. black shoes. Kind of more simple. I don't know if I could pick apart all the Beis Yaakov type schools. I don't know any sem though where the girls dress up as much as the girl in your pic. But if girls really wear that to Sem, I have to wonder what they are really learning in Sem...

To the Yeshiva contingent - Stop trying to argue who is more frei - you're all here, get over it. Going online may be risky, but you can also accomplish a lot more than sports. Figure out for yourself what is best for your frumkeit.

As far as meeting bloggers for real, it depends on your "relationship." If you simply exchange opinions online, you may be sorely disappointed by their "live" personality. But if you really get to know each other on a personal level, then I think your connection may be "real" enough to be face-to-face.

The bottom line - I want Elisheva's Bubby to start a blog!

2/02/2006 10:18 PM  
Blogger Jewboy said...

In fact I do follow sports. I was merely commenting on the fact that seeing any part of Jagger's body uncovered will cause me to lose my lunch.

2/03/2006 8:38 AM  
Blogger Chillin in The Lake said...

First off its very true blog and e-mail relationships can be very good, especially for frum ppl who get embarassed if ppl know all their quirks.
I just want to say that the Mancheseter Rosh Yeshiva was very strong about not shlepping shidduchim out, He used to say if shes nice from a good family and you can carry a conversation and talk through issues with her go for it. He also said she should be good looking in his eyes not the most beutiful girl ever. He was very strong to close the deal right away. Of course everyone has a different time they feel that they reached that point but to date waiting to feel "everything" etc.. dont blame it on the Manchester Rosh Yeshiva.

2/03/2006 10:06 AM  
Blogger Halfnutcase said...

the only sem i know the uniform for is the bais rivka of crown heights, (my best friend is from there after all)

and josh, your right, it would be neat for elishevas grandmother to start a blog, from what little i'm heard she seems to be the kind of person who knows how things should be and doesn't get caught up in the modern shtussim, and therefore it would be facinating to hear what she has to say an a whole range of topics.

2/03/2006 2:53 PM  
Blogger Halfnutcase said...

i think that the observation that if your very shallow then you don't need to spend very much time but if you have alot of depth to you then you should is very true.

honestly, i'm not enitrely comfortable with the idea of closing the shidduchim quickly. sometimes it is better to wait along time on a shidduch, sometimes it's not.

2/03/2006 2:56 PM  
Blogger Eshet Chayil said...

I don't think it's BY...sounds very modern. But then so is BY sem. I really just wanted to say hello. Gite voch SG. I got my blog back. :P

2/04/2006 11:08 PM  
Blogger Jewboy said...

Blogger bites. this thing goes down all the time.

2/05/2006 12:01 AM  
Blogger Datingmaster, Jerusalem said...

we all love you very much so keep up the good work and nice photo-is that you in the photo?
ps come ove rif you have any questions for Mrs datingmaster

2/05/2006 5:20 AM  
Blogger Okee said...

I'm just wondering, am I strange that I'm not terribly excited to start the whole dating process? I put myself in a self-inflicted "freezer" because I don't think I'm ready. But then I decide I am, and I want to get married and start a new chapter, complete my soul and that whole business, but then I stop short and question my motives. Marriage is one of the biggest, holiest steps in our lives -wouldn't it be better if I make sure I am who I am before I start dating? Also, after all those years in a system of "stay away from boys", does anyone else find it difficult to make an about face and spend one on one time with, gosh, a guy?

And besides all the above, there is that horrid, dreaded question: Am I the girl I want my (future) husband to marry?

2/05/2006 7:06 PM  
Blogger Erica said...

hey semgirl ... long time, no post. hope you're well.
could you please do me a small favor and click on my name, come to my blog and find my email address near the bottom of my sidebar (which i'd prefer not to post in the comments section). if you could email me, i need to ask you something. thanks,
erica

2/06/2006 12:53 AM  
Blogger On The Derech said...

Okee J, your mindset is ok because you SHOULD try to be the person you want your husband to marry but on the other hand, it's silly to push it off because who knows?? Maybe your bashert is someone like you now, and you can grow together! Inasmuch as marriage is a huge step, it's a natural step and if you wait TOO long, it might pass you by (CH"V!) It may be scary but it's usualy not that scary once you find the right guy to go thru it with! Good Luck!

2/06/2006 10:41 AM  
Blogger Okee said...

OTD- Thanks. I know, I know, we all gotta grow up sometimes. But it's new and scary... whoa that reminds me of the class I taught today on making that jump into the Yam Suf...creepy...

2/06/2006 2:00 PM  
Blogger Semgirl said...

I totally agree with OTD, but it really depends on age. If you are like 18 and very immature, then for sure you need to put dating on hold. But if you are 22 or old, either get your act together fast, or take a good Shidduch, with LOTS of guidance from older siblings, married friends, and your family's Rov and grow up with your husband together.
Its unfortunate, but when you reach a certain age, especially for girls, your available "normal" boys greatly diminishes. I don't mean to scare you, OJ, but after a certain point , you really don't have the luxury of being in the "freezer" .. Best of luck in your endeavors.

2/06/2006 4:38 PM  
Blogger Chillin in The Lake said...

Semgirl I agree. You are right, as the girls get older (its so sad that 22 is old) the amount of "normal guys diminish. So, if your 19 and not ready wait, but not much longer today, unfortunately.
Besides lots of huys like younger girls who are not so set in their ways. You can grow together with your spouse but dont count on "changing", it can happen but dont count on it.

2/08/2006 12:06 AM  
Blogger LakewoodWorkingGuy said...

Regarding that last comment it is said that guys marry girls hoping they wont change but they do. And girls marry guys hoping they will change but they dont.

2/08/2006 9:24 AM  
Blogger On The Derech said...

LWG - i hear what you are saying. It's unfortunate but alot of girls do marry boys even though there are a few things they'd like to change about them. Boys marry girls who they like the way they are. You cannot marry someone to change them!! You can only hope to grow in the same direction TOGETHER.

Good Luck!!!

2/08/2006 9:44 AM  
Blogger Okee said...

I agree to all the above! Basically, a girl should make sure she's ready, but she doesn't have to wait until she's crispy, well done will do...oh, that is such a wrong analogy. Anyway, LWG, you are so right -and it's actually really sad; I've seen it happen too many times.

2/08/2006 9:45 PM  
Blogger ~ Sarah ~ said...

nice post about blog friends :)

2/09/2006 5:47 AM  
Blogger Know It All said...

If these are what you consider close friendships, I feel really bad for you.

2/09/2006 1:10 PM  
Blogger XVI (R) - NY said...

Name the sem? I may be off and Im not even sure your discussing an israel sem, but Im gonna try... BJJ? Sounds like a safe bet.

2/09/2006 5:39 PM  
Blogger Semgirl said...

Knowit...You should meet my friends in real life..LOL..

2/09/2006 5:59 PM  
Blogger Elisheva said...

Wow, I finally have time to visit my favorite blog! It's always cooking here and I am so sorry I can't check it out more often.

Okee J, I just wanted to say that I had some similar resevations to you, like am I the girl I want my husband to marry. But I was told by a very chashuv kollel guy that there is a major difference between what you believ in, like where are you heading, and what you are.

Like we are human and do silly things and aren't perfect. neither are most guys. So we can grow together. The more imprtant thing is to make sure we belive in the same things and that we are heading in the same direction and want to end up at the same goal. We don't always have to be there yet.

Just food for thought. I know it helped me a lot.

Shalom

2/09/2006 7:17 PM  
Blogger Okee said...

thanks, shev

2/09/2006 7:47 PM  
Blogger Semgirl said...

Welcome back, Shev. You didnt really miss much, as this was the worst week in the history of my blog. I decided to get creative and ignore the KISS principle (Keep It Simple, Stupid ). In the process , I destroyed my template about a hundred times with "help" . Comments were being diverted to Yahoo, nearly lost all my archives. Don't ask . What could go wrong, did. Hope I am back to normal now.

2/09/2006 11:12 PM  
Blogger jewish philosopher said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

2/11/2006 9:41 PM  
Blogger jewish philosopher said...

But what is the name of that seminary? The Sara Schneir Fashion Institute of Technology? Bais Yaakov Modeling School where you can become a model or just look like one?

2/11/2006 9:43 PM  
Blogger Semgirl said...

j Philop, you are funny. If you dress well, they complain, if you don't Shidduchim, don't really take off. Sort of reminds me of the Medrash with the boy, the old man, and the donkey..

2/11/2006 9:58 PM  
Blogger jewish philosopher said...

Clothing really is a means of communication. It says something about who you are, your priorities, beliefs, values, etc. So whatever you do someone isn't going to like it. I just try to be my own man and say to heck with everyone else. I work in a company with 2000 employees and I am the only person who does or who ever has worn visible tzitzis.

I am still hoping you'll email me some photos of yourself so I can critique your fashion sense.

2/12/2006 2:03 PM  
Blogger Semgirl said...

"I am still hoping you'll email me some photos of yourself so I can critique your fashion sense. "

JP..I'm confused why would someone who makes such a tremendous Kiddush Hashem at work, want to do something so un-Tzniusdik. B"h, there are many ladies that I know, who do a very good job of giving fashion advice.

2/12/2006 4:23 PM  
Blogger jewish philosopher said...

SemG, I doubt that viewing the photo of a Lakewood seminary girl would totally corrupt an old man like me; especially someone on your level of tznius.

However I am relieved to hear that you are getting tons of great advice. You know how I worry.

2/12/2006 6:59 PM  
Blogger specialx2 said...

Semgirl - here things are quiet today too.... come on post something new, we need more stimulation and excitement in blogworld

2/13/2006 4:12 PM  
Blogger shtaiger said...

hey special whats up?

2/13/2006 4:31 PM  
Blogger chanie said...

hey semgirl, i like the skirt....

2/14/2006 5:03 AM  
Blogger shtaiger said...

im still waiting for your email, chanaleh.

2/14/2006 4:03 PM  
Blogger On The Derech said...

SemGirl - so, nu.... which seminary wins in your game? I have no clue!!
But i'm curious to know what you had in mind

2/15/2006 10:57 AM  
Blogger Semgirl said...

OTD... Speak to later..

2/15/2006 2:05 PM  
Blogger shtaiger said...

check it out!! www.shtaiger.blogspot.com

2/15/2006 3:12 PM  
Blogger exsemgirl said...

Just a comment someone mentioned to me-could you open your comments to non bloggers too?

2/15/2006 6:51 PM  
Blogger Semgirl said...

exsem... Unfortunately, there are a lot of immature , puerile guys out there that would abuse that, and write all sorts of inappropriate things as "anonymous" and I would have to moderate continuously which is a pain..

Anyone who doesn't want to get a blog ID , which takes five minutes and you dont even have to write anything on the blog created or do anything with it is welcome to email me privately.

2/15/2006 7:09 PM  
Blogger shtaiger said...

why isnt anyone commenting on my blog??

2/15/2006 9:54 PM  
Blogger Semgirl said...

You got moderation on, Staig, maybe see what happens if you turn it off.

2/15/2006 10:01 PM  
Blogger Datingmaster, Jerusalem said...

COME AND MEET MY MAMA

2/16/2006 8:05 AM  
Blogger On The Derech said...

SG- THANKS FOR ADDING MY LINK!! I'VE MADE IT IN BLOGWORLD!! LOL.

2/16/2006 10:26 AM  
Blogger jewish philosopher said...

A question occured to me on the bus this morning. I noticed a very pretty girl wearing a lot of makeup. I'm just wondering - WHY?

Pretty women look pretty without makeup. Ugly women look ugly with it. This is just my opinion. Am I alone in this? [Boruch Hashem my wife never wears makeup - not any chumrah, she doesn't like it. Maybe that's one reason I married her...]

2/16/2006 12:45 PM  
Blogger Chillin in The Lake said...

BTW women have been wearing makeup for thousands of years its not a new thing. So I guess if its brought in halacha and gemora etc... there must be something to it. Of course if your wife does not and its ok for both of you great. But there is no question as to why they do. You are right it does not make a ugly girl, good looking but it certainly enhances her looks and helps hide flaws.

2/16/2006 6:22 PM  
Blogger jewish philosopher said...

I still have a suspicion that advertising from the cosmetics industry plays a big role.

Again, it may be just me. Maybe other guys love girls with makeup.

2/16/2006 6:31 PM  
Blogger On The Derech said...

i dont want u to think i am vain, but i do consider myself to be a good looking girl. But without the little help that i get from makeup, it's not the same!

I dont wear heavy makeup - just enough to do it's job, lip gloss eye makeup and some bronzer for the winter! But it does a heck of a job, and i would never leave the house without it!

WHen you look at me, it doesnt look like i'm wearing alot of makeup but when i'm not wearing any, you can tell!!

I think many girls can relate

2/17/2006 10:15 AM  
Blogger jewish philosopher said...

I don't think that wanting to look your best is vain. But I think the real idea behind makeup is that makeup is supposed to give a woman a more healthy appearance. Red lips, rosy cheeks and a good complexion are all signs of good health and a male is naturally more attracted to a healthy female than he is too a sick one.

All this is well and good, however I personally feel that it would be preferable for girls to actually be healthy, rather than to try and just look healthy with cosmetics. I recommend "Nutrition for Dummies" and "Fitness for Dummies". Eat properly. Throw out the junk food. Have a salad with low calorie dressing. Exercise. Get off the web. (Except of course for the SemGirl blog, which is essential.) Go to a gym. Run a few miles every day. I predict that in six months you’ll feel better and have a natural glow.

If there’s a more serious problem, like bad acne, it's a good idea to see a dermatologist. I use Dr. Strenger in Monsey.

Maybe I’m an old fashioned guy, but that’s my opinion. And it worked for my wife.

2/17/2006 12:15 PM  
Blogger jewish philosopher said...

I do believe in perfume however. If it's really good.

2/17/2006 4:51 PM  
Blogger exsemgirl said...

Jewish philosopher -
The best compliment a girl can get is that she doesn’t look like she's wearing makeup when she is. Makeup is meant to enhance beauty not to coat the skin in an artificial colour!!
If you see the makeup and then the girl-forget it she's got it all wrong. But if you see the girl looking good and only at a closer glance notice the makeup then she's got it right. Unfortunately there are few who actually know how to wear makeup well.
Regarding health-don't tell me that you look perfectly healthy all of the time. We all have our down days (girls especially!) and a little makeup does the trick.
Regarding perfume-halachicly it's very problematic as not man may smell a woman's perfume unless he's her husband, father, brother or son. So as I am single there are very few opportunities for me...Though I find few know or hold of this halacha...

2/18/2006 4:37 PM  
Blogger jewish philosopher said...

I am impressed by your concern about the halachic problems of perfume, but wouldn't the same issue actually apply to makeup? After all, an unrelated man may also not a appreciate girl's pretty face.

My point was of course that even when a woman is encouraged to be attractive for example for husband I believe that really good quality perfume can help, makeup really doesn't.

2/18/2006 7:34 PM  
Blogger Semgirl said...

OTD…You are welcome.. I love your blog

JP… I’m surprised at you.. Looking at women on the bus. Actually, the Gematta says not like you. I believe I once heard, correct me if I am wrong, that there was a big sage mentioned in Cetuvos whose main occupation was making the ugliest Callas look beautiful for their Chasana. The Gamarra describes different plants and roots that achieved the required results.

I hope that isn’t the main reason you married her.

Chilling… I think you and me are basically saying the same thing.

OTD… I think I know what you mean..I used to have a neighbor that desperately needed makeup , especially foundation and rouge . With it , she was a glamorous beauty, without it , she really looked hideous. I really felt bad for her on a three day Yom Tov.

ExSem… Absolutely, the rule is , if your makeup is obvious , you put on too much. I highly recommend the Victoria Jackson videos.available at www.vmakeup.com. She is famous for the no makeup look.
As for perfume, if you were a high school girl, you might be right. But if you are of Shidduch age, there is definitely a heter. Obviously, always ask your own Rov. If memory serves me, even in the Rabbi Falk book it says that the Gamarra is referring to wearing a broche with fragrant spices that is ossur, as opposed to our perfume that is absorbed by the skin and isn’t really tangible. Also, Rashi and many Rishonim hold that the halacha is specifically talking about a Married lady. In Seminary, that book was ingrained in my head, lol.

2/18/2006 7:53 PM  
Blogger jewish philosopher said...

Regarding looking at pretty girls on the bus, Semgirl, well I hate to disappoint you, however you are not the only human with hormones. I'll leave it at that.

I would be curious to see a source in Chazal which actually encourages cosmetic usage. I can't think of one off hand. I would be grateful for a citation

And if my wife used a lot a makeup, something I hate, that would have been an issue. However this isn't the only reason I married her. There were another one or two good qualities.

2/18/2006 10:47 PM  
Blogger Elisheva said...

Sorry, I've been mising on all this.

About the make-up. I guess it's something the girls understand. You can be good looking and have a bad day. No it won't make you become pretty if you're not. But it can hide eyes dark from lack of sleep, pale skin, and other things which can depend on hormones and stuff even of you are healthy. Girl's bodies are different and skin changes with the seasins and everything. Make-up is a lifesaver for these times.

I totally do not wear a lot of make up, and like was said already, the best compliment is that I look like I am not. And the truth is I do not wear that much. But the little enhancm,ents make a big difference. And it can not be the cosmetic ads if the gemara is full of reference to it.

Perfume was not allowed in my home. I have to look in Rabbi Falk's book. If he lets then I wasted the last couple of years! I wonder what my mother will say.. The book is her Torah, lol. Too late, I guess. After we get married I was told it is okay at home, and okay outside as long as it is not obvious to everyone passing by and just subtle when you get close. I guess everyone has their own minhag or psak.

Shalom

2/19/2006 2:19 AM  
Blogger Chillin in The Lake said...

Im not a "Boky" in R' Falks book but I do know shulchan Oruch and I do not know of an issur for a women to wear todays perfume. (besides for a niddah, which is a totaly different issue). If its subtle, and not strong to attract attention. I know many people who dont, and dont want their children too but its more of a tznius matter, that they feel its too attractive and not eidel. Its definitly not osser.

About Makeup I said my piece it sure enhances the beuty of a woman. Of course the girls and women who put on tons like indian war paint dont look pretty. But thats like anything, too much or not the right way can do worse then help. JP I will work on some mekoros but the Gemara talks about the peddlers who used to go from place to place selling womens stuff. I will quote you a few shortly. No one said the Gemora encourages makeup use (which it may). We said that its been around for many years and that there must be something to it.

Elisheva, you wrote about perfume, after we get married its ok at home etc. Is that your parents shita, your chossons, or your teacher?

2/19/2006 8:55 AM  
Blogger jewish philosopher said...

Wearing cosmetics has been a common practice since time immemorial and it may be a reasonable option for a older woman to restore a more vigous, youthful appearance. However it's obviously a lot better to actually be vigorous and youthful.

Another pet peeve I have is hair coloring. I haven't noticed this among the sem girl crowd yet, boruch Hashem, however at work it is so common. I think it should be outlawed, it's usually so bad.

The Talmud Bavli Bava Kama 82a towards the top states "Ezra established 10 statutes ... peddlers should travel through the villages" Rashi explains "bringing spices to woman to decorate themselves with them".

This seems to promote perfume usage, and I will agree with Ezra on this [not that he needs my endorsement]. Good perfume is really nice.

I think wearing perfume is not a problem for the woman to the best of my knowledge. It is a problem for men. Just like a man is not supposed to stare at prohibited women for the sake of sexual satisfaction, the same applies to sniffing a forbidden woman's perfume.

2/19/2006 10:11 AM  
Blogger Limey2001 said...

jp, you missed the gemora in Chelek (10 ch Sanhaderin) and other places which call those peddlers reshoim (101b?)

2/19/2006 12:25 PM  
Blogger Limey2001 said...

An interseting gemora about women and perfume
shabbos 62b
'וברגליהן תעכסנה' (כמו וכעכס אל מוסר אויל (משלי ז,כב) והוא ארס של נחש, וקרי לה 'עכס' על שם שאינו מטילו אלא על ידי כעס) - אמר רב יצחק דבי רבי אמי: מלמד שמטילות מור ואפרסמון במנעליהן ומהלכות בשוקי ירושלים, וכיון שמגיעות אצל בחורי ישראל - בועטות בקרקע ומתיזות עליהם ומכניסות בהן יצר הרע כארס בכעוס (נחש כעוסה).

מאי פורענותיהם?

כדדריש רבה בר עולא: (ישעיהו ג,כד) והיה תחת בושם מק יהיה [ותחת חגורה נקפה ותחת מעשה מקשה קרחה ותחת פתיגיל מחגרת שק כי תחת יפי] - מקום שהיו מתבשמות בו - נעשה נמקים נמקים (כמו המק בשרו (זכריה יד,יב)),

2/19/2006 1:05 PM  
Blogger Semgirl said...

Hey Limey.. You can post Gamarras and other sources, here whenever you want. But, English translation, please. Hello !!! Its a girl's blog.

2/19/2006 1:14 PM  
Blogger Limey2001 said...

jp according to your logic, short skirts, no stockings and short sleeves
should be no problem since the problem is for the men........ i quote "it is a problem for men. Just like a man is not supposed to stare at prohibited women for the sake of sexual satisfaction"........
What I got from dayan falks book was if it turns on a guy it's verboten
(that would include just about anything like just living..,)

2/19/2006 1:17 PM  
Blogger Limey2001 said...

SG it's easy enough(you are SEMGIRL!!!) you mustv'e learned how in sem.
if not get an artscroll (i will try to find a translation on line)

2/19/2006 1:19 PM  
Blogger ms. shtark said...

about makeup and perfume, everything in moderation. subtlety is the key. and uh guys.... please don't load up on the cologne too much - like we can tell if you are a heavy smoker if your car STINKS of cologne. the key is to look good without looking like you tried too hard.

2/19/2006 1:24 PM  
Blogger exsemgirl said...

JP- "...but wouldn't the same issue actually apply to makeup? After all, an unrelated man may also not a appreciate girl's pretty face."
So would you think that every woman has to go around completely covered like the Arab woman???
That is not what halacha requires us to do. But yes looking deliberately provocative is forbidden but attractive isn't. There is a difference!
Semgirl-my quote and learning of the halacha of perfume was from a shiur on tznius that Rabbi Falk gave in London a while ago. He clearly said that no man who is not a woman's relative may smell her perfume. Of course we each have our own unique smell and we may make it pleasant-but for a guy to distinctly smell it is provocative and thus forbidden. Especially on a shidduch. Perfumes are made deliberately to attract the opposite sex and therefore they are a powerful tool that one should treasure and use carefully.

2/19/2006 2:36 PM  
Blogger Elisheva said...

Limey, no fair. I am so curious. At least tell us the gist of what that gemara means...

About what I wrote about perfume after marriage, it is what my parents always said and i told my chosson and he said fine. So I guess now it's set. Can't wait. I'll be like the kid in the candy store, lol. I have my ideas already, but I am open to any good suffestions. But only the natural subtle smell. I hate the powerful, cheap, chemical smell.

Shalom

2/19/2006 2:55 PM  
Blogger Limey2001 said...

LE7 ask your chosson,
ask him if just a whiff of you drives his hormones wild
;-}
i'm trying to get an accurate translation

2/19/2006 3:20 PM  
Blogger Limey2001 said...

That lie upon beds of ivory, and stretch themselves [seruhim] upon their couches.15 R. Jose son of R. Hanina said: This refers to people who e before their beds naked.16 R. Abbahu derided this: If so, is that why it is written: Therefore shall they now go captive with the first that go captive:17 because they e before their beds naked they shall go captive with the first that go captive! Rather said R. Abbahu: This refers to people who eat and drink together, join their couches, exchange their wives, and make their couches foul [maserihim] with semen that is not theirs.

R. Abbahu7 said — others say, In a Baraitha it was taught: Three things bring man to poverty. viz., ing in front of one's bed naked, treating the washing of the hands with disrespect,18 and being cursed by one's wife in his presence. ' ing in front of one's bed naked': Raba said, This was said only when his face is turned to the bed: but if it is turned in the opposite direction, we have nought against it. And even when his face is turned to the bed, this was said only when it is on to the ground;19 but if it is into a vessel, we have nought against it. 'And the treating of the washing of the hands with disrespect': Raba said, This was said only when one does not wash his hands at all; but if he washes them inadequately,20 we have nought against it. (But this is not so, for R. Hisda said: I washed with full handfuls of water and was granted full handfuls of prosperity).21 'And being cursed by one's wife in his presence': Said Raba: [That is when she curses him] on account of her adornments.22 But that is only when he has the means but does not provide them.23

Raba son of R. Ilai lectured: What is meant by, Moreover the Lord said, Because the daughters of Zion are haughty?24 That means that they walked with haughty bearing.25 And walk with outstretched necks26 — they walked heel by toe.27 And wanton [mesakroth] eyes:28 they filled their eyes with stibium and beckoned.29 Walking and mincing: they walked, a tall woman by the side of a short one. And making a tinkling [te'akasnah] with their feet: R. Isaac of the School of R. Ammi said: This teaches that they placed myrrh and balsam in their shoes and walked through the market-places of Jerusalem, and on coming near to the young men of Israel, they kicked their feet and spurted it on them, thus instilling them with passionate desire like with serpent's poison.30

And what is their punishment? — As Rabbah b. 'Ulla lectured: And it shall come to pass, that instead of sweet spices [bosem] there shall be rottenness:31 the place where they perfumed themselves [mithbasmoth] shall be decaying sores. And instead of a girdle a rope [nikpeh]: the place where they were girded with a girdle shall become full of bruises [nekafim]. And instead of well-set hair baldness: the place where they adorned themselves shall be filled with bald patches. And instead of a stomacher [pethigil] a girding of sackcloth: the openings that lead to [sensual] joy32 shall be for a girding of sackcloth. Branding [ki] instead of beauty: Said Raba, Thus men say, Ulcers instead of beauty.

Therefore the Lord will smite with a scab [wesipah] the crown of the head of the daughters of Zion.33 R. Jose son of R. Hanina said: This teaches that leprosy broke out in them: here is written wesipah; whilst elsewhere it is written, [This is the law for all manner of plagues of leprosy …] and for a rising and for a scab [sapahath].34 And the Lord will lay bare [ye'areh] their secret parts:35 Rab and Samuel — one maintained: This means that they were poured out like a cruse;36 while the other said: Their openings became like a forest.

Rab Judah said in Rab's name: The men of Jerusalem were vulgar. One would say to his neighbour, On what did you dine to-day: on well-kneaded bread or on bread that is not well kneaded;37 on white wine38 or

2/19/2006 3:27 PM  
Blogger Limey2001 said...

http://www.come-and-hear.com/shabbath/shabbath_62.html

2/19/2006 3:28 PM  
Blogger Limey2001 said...

on dark [i.e., mustard-coloured] wine; on a broad couch or on a narrow couch; with a good companion or with a poor companion? R. Hisda observed: And all these are in reference to immorality.

2/19/2006 3:30 PM  
Blogger Limey2001 said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

2/19/2006 3:31 PM  
Blogger ms. shtark said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

2/19/2006 3:32 PM  
Blogger Limey2001 said...

I included the entire section that its brought from, some food for thought
Here is just the section i mentioned

"And making a tinkling [te'akasnah] with their feet: R. Isaac of the School of R. Ammi said: This teaches that they placed myrrh and balsam in their shoes and walked through the market-places of Jerusalem, and on coming near to the young men of Israel, they kicked their feet and spurted it on them, thus instilling them with passionate desire like with serpent's poison.30

And what is their punishment? — As Rabbah b. 'Ulla lectured: And it shall come to pass, that instead of sweet spices [bosem] there shall be rottenness:31 the place where they perfumed themselves [mithbasmoth] shall be decaying sores."

2/19/2006 3:33 PM  
Blogger ms. shtark said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

2/19/2006 3:33 PM  
Blogger Limey2001 said...

PS the site may not be for frum people i used it only for the purpose of translating the portion required for the s who forgot their sem training.
PPS, SG feel free to delete it after you and 7 read it

2/19/2006 3:38 PM  
Blogger Limey2001 said...

MS- the "drivel" you speak of is our holy talmud........

2/19/2006 3:39 PM  
Blogger jewish philosopher said...

First of all, wearing miniskirts is prohibited by halochah. Perfume is not prohibited by halochah and in fact is even encouraged by halochah as per the gemora in Bava Kama 82a. However a man is not allowed to benefit from a forbidden woman, if I am not mistaken.

Makeup to the best of my knowledge is not encouraged or discouraged by halochah, perhaps because it just doesn't look good anyway.

Rabbi Falk's book, incidentally, I believe is not halochah. It is one rabbi's advice and actually primarily deals with developing good character traits such as humility which, while the core of Judaism, varies a great deal according to different circumstances. His sources should always be checked.

2/19/2006 4:19 PM  
Blogger Limey2001 said...

JP- The most interesting thing about that gemorah is that ezra also said "ve'she'te'heh isha cho'geres be'sinar" which rashi describes as pants........(not confuse this with the discussion in LE7's blog)
Better described as chastity belt
And to eat garlic on friday (night) because of the posuk in tehilim "asher piryo yee'tain be'eeto" (garlic is supposed to be an aphrodisiac? jk)

2/19/2006 4:58 PM  
Blogger Limey2001 said...

The gemorah in sanhedrin was 100b near the bottom
i'm not posting it

2/19/2006 5:02 PM  
Blogger Semgirl said...

Limey, I appreciate your effort. But you do realize that this is the Soncino translation from a questionable website. I will try and post the ArtScroll version later..

2/19/2006 5:40 PM  
Blogger ms. shtark said...

limey, you are 100% right. that is why i deleted my comments. I just did not understand what you were writing. i should not have called it "drivle".

2/19/2006 6:21 PM  
Blogger jewish philosopher said...

As I understand it the gemora in Sanhedrin merely comments that the perfume peddlers were often beaten by jealous husbands who came to find them alone with their wives. It doesn't say they were wicked.

2/19/2006 8:24 PM  
Blogger anonlady said...

2 points:

Rabbi Falks book is not accepted in all right wing orthodox circles. In fact it has been criticized for certain inaccuracies.

Anyone who is old enough to get married is old enough to think for themselves. Perfume is something a female wears for herself. One of the places I put it is on my wrists at the pulse point. Thus, I can enjoy the fragrance. If I enjoy the fragrance I wear it. It's that simple.

2/19/2006 10:43 PM  
Blogger Okee said...

The whole makeup/perfume issue is also the question of how good can u look? Can a single woman really find the correct balance between looking attractive and looking attracting? Should I wear less mascara since the 7-11 guy called me honey? Or maybe he just likes girls who love slurpees...Food for thought...

2/20/2006 12:02 AM  
Blogger Chillin in The Lake said...

Okee - Well thats where chinuch, mesorah and community come in. Some people feel you have to look like a rag, and some feel you have to look like your at a wedding. Thats where you need a balance, and thats why a book like R' Falks in many ways is only his perspective not Halacha and alot of frum chashuv rabbanim argue on alot of the book. But again there is NO issur for a girl to wear make up or perfume, the question is how much.

2/20/2006 10:16 AM  
Blogger Limey2001 said...

SG- Please do get the artscroll version and yes i did mention it was from a questionable website, all i could do on short notice
JP- Quite right about that gemora, beaten by jealous husbands who came to find them "alone" with their wives
Yichud is not a good thing and in this case "uman torud be'melacha" wouldn't apply... In any case i said this can be one of a few places i'm trying to remember others
Also does the next line about ry have anything to do with that line?
AnonLady- Are you kidding??"Perfume is something a female wears for herself" just like the guy wearing too much cologne on a date he just wants to feel "masculine"

2/20/2006 10:33 AM  
Blogger jewish philosopher said...

Regarding how women should dress, certain clear cut rules are settled by halochah. For example, no miniskirts, pants, married women must cover their hair. Beyond that I believe it's actually a question of good character traits, which applies to men as well as women and applies to everything else in life.

Let's say I'm a man and I happen to have nice pecs [I lift weights a little]. Let's say I choose to wear really tight T shirts to show them off. Is that prohibited? Not really. But what does that show about my character - my middos? If I have it I want to flaunt it? Isn't that self centered? Aren't I missing the entire point of Judaism, which is to be a selfless person? Maybe when I'm undressing my wife wants to see me and maybe that's fine, it's for a positive reason. But's what positive reason is there for me to show off to the whole world?

Also, just by the way, I think makeup may be more about bolstering a girl's self confidence than improving her appearance. Perhaps it creates a sort of "mask". My advice is: Don't be insecure!

2/20/2006 12:27 PM  
Blogger Semgirl said...

JP...easier said than done.. But this was all discussed in my self-esteem post, why are we rehashing it all.

2/20/2006 3:55 PM  
Blogger geshmaker said...

because nothing else is going on. it's time for new posts all around.
i have nothing to read nowadays. your blog is just rehashing old stuff. (can't even be considered a "best of")
elisheva is stuck in "shaitels n' gowns".
and this "shtaiger" freak has brought nothing to the table. all i've got is the stupid olympics to check up on.

2/20/2006 5:30 PM  
Blogger jewish philosopher said...

Semgirl, you mean the makeup thing is in your self esteem post? But I think you are for it and I'm against it.

One other point. There is no need to cover up small skin flaws. Seriously, it just looks normal. I don't think men really want women to look like plastic Barbie dolls.

2/20/2006 6:07 PM  
Blogger jewish philosopher said...

Also, maybe retitle the Self Esteem post "Make Up". That would have made it clearer to me that this was really pretty much covered already.

2/20/2006 6:16 PM  
Blogger Limey2001 said...

Geshmaker we are waiting anxiously for your blog......or are you afraid of a little critique?

2/20/2006 6:40 PM  
Blogger ms. shtark said...

I have a question. This is sort of in regards to make up and perfume. I get asked this question a lot at work. I work in a nonfrum office and I always get asked why do women have to cover their hair and I answer with the standard "hair is an attractive part of the body and so you save it for your husband". to which i get the reply - aren't those 2000 dollar wigs a lot more attractive? i honestly did not know what to reply. i said something like "we are not expected to look unattractive either and that we are supposed to go around looking representable"

2/20/2006 7:16 PM  
Blogger Okee said...

Ms. shtark- I get asked that question alllll the time by family friends-'specially the women who don't cover their hair...and i answer that the issue of covering hair is NOT about making a women look unattractive. That is not the main purpose of tznius either. Tznius means hiding what is precious. When women get married, they gain a new sensitivity to tznius, and so they cover their hair- which is a very precious feminine trait. Hair emerges from the head, so it is indicative of internality. We hide it, to "save"-so to speak-that precious internality for our husbands (and more importantly, ourselves. And then I finish up by saying that the issue of hair covering goes above and beyond what I just said, and if they want to know more, or if they want sources, i could get back to them. I hope that helps!

2/20/2006 8:44 PM  
Blogger geshmaker said...

not afraid of critique at all. would i comment the way i do if i was scared of criticism?
however, if you've noticed my style, it doesn't really lend itself to a blog. you know, not really thought out, off the cuff, wahtever comes to mind, does not make for too much good reading. sometimes i look at what i wrote a few days later and say "what the HELL were you thinking?!?"
and besides, when you see some of the flash-in-the-pan blogs that come and go. (no examples needed) when the "blogger" only makes a half-**sed attempt at keeping it interesting the whole thing just goes down the drain. (sadly enough that can also happen to well established blogs to, when the blogger lets a post run too long and doesn't stay on top of the conversations) and besides i don't have any pressing issues that i feel the need to share with the world.
feel free to criticise!!!
(especialy the spelling)

2/20/2006 8:46 PM  
Blogger ms. shtark said...

okee, it's funny because this was bothering me so i looked in a few books and i found a good explanation in outside/inside by gila manolson... basically the gist of it was that once you are married you have a new awareness of yourself......... it's all in the book. don't have time to write it out.

2/20/2006 9:28 PM  
Blogger jewish philosopher said...

Probably the best answer, regarding wigs, is "I don't really know why wigs are OK and hair isn't. It's just a Jewish tradition." That may be the most accurate answer.

In other words, Jewish women at some point (maybe from the time of Sarah?) accepted upon themselves to cover their hair, however they, for whatever reason, accepted this as applying only after marriage and they allowed the usage of wigs.
(Muslim women by the way cover even in childhood and do not use wigs.)

Of course, many poskim would agree with your co-workers, that wigs are just the same as hair and therefore forbidden.

2/21/2006 12:32 PM  
Blogger Semgirl said...

Although many Hungarian Rebbes and Chasidishe poskim hold that one should shave their head and wear a kerchief or a Turban, the prevailing custom in our circles is to cover our hair after marriage in a tasteful, pleasant manner.

Firstly, to show that a Jewish lady can be Modest without being hideous. Because the ways of the Torah are ways of pleasantness.

It goes without saying that a glamorous Hollywood-like custom wig, may fulfill the letter of the law but not the spirit in which the Halacha was intended. Any competent Rov, who is being honest with you will tell you that.

2/21/2006 3:11 PM  
Blogger jewish philosopher said...

Actually, a wig is very questionable. See the Mishnah Brurah siman 75 sif koton 15. I think some Sefardi women are machmir as well.

Showing off ones good looks, for a man or woman, married or single, is improper self centeredness - gaavah.

2/21/2006 7:41 PM  
Blogger Parsha Potpourri said...

No fair, you brought in another maggid shiur in my absence! :)

This week's post is up, enjoy...

2/22/2006 1:41 AM  
Blogger Semgirl said...

DM... Thanks for the compiment, however I don't appreciate you leaving links on my blog to your perverted porn site.

2/22/2006 7:50 AM  
Blogger Semgirl said...

PP...welcome back Rebbi.. so you are welcome to join in on the discussion

2/22/2006 7:55 AM  
Blogger jewish philosopher said...

PP, I hope you don't mean me. I'm hardly a maggid shiur. Just a bored computer programmer trying to cope with midlife crisis.

2/22/2006 12:41 PM  
Blogger On The Derech said...

Regarding Shaitels, i once heard the following story:

A baalas teshuva once went to a prominent gadol hador (i dont remember exactly which rav it was) and asked him why it's permissable to wear shaitels like women do nowadays, they are so natural looking??

The Rav answered that if ANOTHER WOMAN CANNOT TELL IT'S A WIG, THEN IT'S ASSUR.

This is so true!! Other frum women will always be able to tell that you are wearing a shaitel!

2/22/2006 2:00 PM  
Blogger Parsha Potpourri said...

Rav Moshe writes in Igros Moshe on the subject of sheitels to a guy who apparently doesn't want to let his wife wear one on halachic grounds (why he asked Rav Moshe, whose wife wore one, I haven't figured out yet) after a long exaplanation of why it's ok, he adds:

And if you are clean-shaven, then you have no grounds to open your mouth. The Torah forbids shaving with a razor, so where is your beard? Ela mai, you'll answer, everybody knows that there's kosher ways to shave today. Well everybody knows that ladies are wearing wigs too. So if you accept the first for yourself, how dare you deny your wife the 2nd!

A sefardi friend did tell me that Rav Ovadyah Yosef holds that sefardi women shouldn't (aren't allowed to?) wear sheitels even today. I assure you kitniyos one week a year isn't worth having to give up your sheitel! :)

2/22/2006 2:38 PM  
Blogger shmuel said...

OK, I think enough time has passed. Mazel tov!!!!! You should be zocheh to build a bayis of torah and love.

2/22/2006 4:16 PM  
Blogger Jewboy said...

Shmuel: ?

2/22/2006 4:38 PM  
Blogger geshmaker said...

could it be?
she HAS been neglegting her blog.

2/23/2006 11:45 AM  
Blogger jewish philosopher said...

If Semgirl is about to join the ranks of the happily married, will she wear a wig?

2/23/2006 12:38 PM  
Blogger Semgirl said...

I appreciate the brochas from everyone, but obviously for anonymity purposes, you all realize that this blog is not done in real-time .

And yes, JP, of course I would wear a wig. Do you mean as opposed to wearing my own hair, or as opposed to wearing a turban or hat, specifically and not a wig.

2/23/2006 2:55 PM  
Blogger geshmaker said...

"I appreciate the brochas from everyone, but obviously for anonymity purposes, you all realize that this blog is not done in real-time ."

wow! talk about vague answers. what is that supposed to mean? this was pretty much a yes or no situation. not that much gray area.

2/23/2006 3:18 PM  
Blogger Limey2001 said...

OMG MAZAL TOV OMG

2/23/2006 4:56 PM  
Blogger jewish philosopher said...

I think Semgirl means she is already married and expecting. I guess we will get invited to the bris when she is really making the bar mitzvah.

Semgirl, I actually imagine you in a snood and a long denim skirt with sneakers (I approve of sneakers - good for your knees).

And don't gain too much during the pregnancy. You will lose all your admirers.

2/23/2006 8:04 PM  
Blogger groinem said...

Sorry I haven't been around for some time. I see my first comment generated a lot of response. Quotes from the Heiliger Rav Bick and the Manchester Rosh Yeshiva are just not relevant here. Rav Bick was not arguing at the time with a nameless Gadol. He was arguing with the Heiliger Satmar Rov and I do not think if the question was just whom do we have to listen to rav Bick or the Satmar Rov any knowledgable person would choose Rav Bick. However, the point is that they were not talking about our current society and therefore these statements are irrelevant. Concerning the Manchester Rosh Yeshiva, my father discussed everything about his shidduch 35 years ago with the Manchester Rosh Yeshiva (he lived in Manchester and was a Yasom so everything was discussed with him) and he recalls no such opinion. Shoshana, you think that a person must 'feel' comfortable with the shiduch. I dealt with that in my first posting. Feelings are not reality. They are only important in a marriage, not in an engagement, but they can be cultivated and anyway must be cultivated, otherwise the marriage is in trouble regardless of what they felt before they got married.
BMGBochur, that answers your point too. You do not need to develop a relationship before you get married and the point of dating is not to spend time developing a relationship. Goyim do it that way because they have no push to actually get married quickly. Us Yidden know that it is spiritually and morally unhealthy for a boy tro be friendly with a girl and therefore we developed a new system that includes a lot of checking out and a Sheva Berachos to get to know the stranger you married. I did it that way and after 5 years and 3 children I think I am still doing fine with no ill effects.

2/24/2006 11:49 AM  
Blogger Dave J. said...

This is the last time i am visitng your blog. You post so unoften i dont know why anyone visits this blog. Goog luck. MB

2/24/2006 1:06 PM  
Blogger Semgirl said...

I am sorry MB.. there is really a lot going on in my life, right now. I will try and post as soon as I can.

2/24/2006 1:53 PM  
Blogger jewish philosopher said...

Probably morning sickness.

Don't worry, SemG. You're going to be OK. Hang in there.

2/25/2006 10:04 PM  
Blogger Semgirl said...

Groinem...welcome back !!

First of all, my father spoke to the Manchester RY, before he got engaged, and was told basically keep going out until you are comfortable. Obviously, within reason..

" Us Yidden know that it is spiritually and morally unhealthy for a boy tro be friendly with a girl and therefore we developed a new system that includes a lot of checking out and a Sheva Berachos to get to know the stranger you married. I did it that way and after 5 years and 3 children I think I am still doing fine with no ill effects. "

I wish you a lot of Nachas and Mazal with your family ad meir v'esrim. But, for every story like yours there are unfortunately an even number of divorces.

2/25/2006 11:05 PM  
Blogger jewish philosopher said...

You know in Sweden most couples have children before officially marrying. And they still have a very high divorce rate.

The secret to avoid divorce is to not want to get divorced.

2/25/2006 11:44 PM  
Blogger Datingmaster, Jerusalem said...

can I please write a shidduch fantasy post about you?

2/28/2006 3:44 AM  
Blogger mamash cute said...

You're insane and that's all I have to say. Don't call yourself a bais yaakov girl cause you're not. You're sick and depressed and in great need of psychiatric help. You're lucky I don't know who you are, cause you wouldn't be going out on any dates at all if I did. Poor guy from Monsey who had to sit with you for a few hours. I don't know which seminary you went to but you're a shame to any girl that ever went to one. By the way, there's more to a guy than his body. And I would think that you wouldn't hold hands with him, cause it's kind of halacha (or maybe you haven't heard of that). And as for your great mentor... I think pretty low of her too right now. If you're the result of looking up to her then she must be real low just like you.

2/28/2006 6:54 AM  
Blogger Semgirl said...

MC: Any and all opininons are welcome on this forum. Thank you for your input.

2/28/2006 7:02 AM  
Blogger Jewboy said...

MC- Why do you even bother? You're a jerk, SG may have held back but I don't care to. Take your holier than thou attitude elsewhere, lowlife.

2/28/2006 1:10 PM  
Blogger Jay said...

Hi-nice blog, SG.
Wishing you luck with it.
BTW - it just occurred to me - you could be a boy pretending to be Sem Girl. Now that would be interesting to find out.

3/09/2006 9:16 AM  
Blogger ~ Sarah ~ said...

purim sameach!!
and good on you for helping organise tehilim.

3/13/2006 7:40 PM  
Blogger Wolf said...

The skirt that you show in the picture is amazing and the comment:

" Simple patent leather pomps, nude hosiery, stylish navy blue skirt fashionably below the knee with a with white trim, white ruffled blouse, with blue tailored jacket, hair in a curly wave. Very conservative, yet tastefully applied makeup."

makes me wish that I could see you dressed up. I am way into modest clothing on frum women, and I find that fashion choice your mentioned quite attractive.

4/23/2012 6:41 PM  

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