Blog Friends
Ok, lots to discuss. First off Mazel Tov to Elisheva and her Chosson. May they share many , many years of Simcha together. Its amazing how close you can become in Blogland. For all of you, that are curious out there, I only know Elisheva by email. However, I feel happier for her than I have ever felt for any of my real world friends. I would really love to meet her, but we will see what happens. You see, on the one hand, it would really be great to finally see the face behind the hundreds of emails, of which I shall always cherish each and every one of them. On the other, maybe we couldn’t be as open and share as much if we knew each other in real life, especially in Lakewood.
What I like most about email and blog relationships is that since you don’t what anyone looks like or see their annoying quirks and mannerisms, you aren’t distracted by it and your entire personality comes out . This can be good and bad. For example, some boys who comment on my blog and seem to be real jerks , after you get to know them via email are incredibly sweet (you know who you are) . Conversely, others seem very cool and fly at first, then turn out to be major DORKS…
I have a very close email friend in Toronto, whom I know is very attractive. If I knew her in real life, there would probably be an intense jealousy-rivalry thing going on, but thru the wonders of cyberspace we have incredible chemistry.
In regards to my Shidduch. Yes, we still are dating, But I don’t move as fast as Elisheva, and don’t plan to. I hope to write some detailed narratives of our dates in the future. Interstingly, we have the opposite situation in regard to the blog. I showed him my blog, and he was incredulous. “You mean you got 300+ comments and you don’t have ads, are you nuts ? “ . Since I am a real novice to HTML code, it doesn’t look so pretty yet. But I promise, I will try to make it look much more aesthetic as soon as I learn more.
He actually, gave me about a dozen ideas to write about. But, I am going to take it on a day to day basis., as I really don’t want to completely surrender my uniqueness and individuality to a guy, no matter how wonderful he is.
In other news, I was elated to see my blog made the list recently on esefer..
Oh and one final point.. Simple patent leather pomps, nude hosiery, stylish navy blue skirt fashionably below the knee with a with white trim, white ruffled blouse, with blue tailored jacket, hair in a curly wave. Very conservative, yet tastefully applied makeup..
You’re the next contestant on NAME THAT SEMINARY !!!!
posted by SemGirl | Wednesday, February 01, 2006
90 Comments:
Congrats for getting listed although I have no idea of what that blog is about. But will check it out.
I agree with what you mean about the meeting in person, I have very high opinions on some of the bloggers around the net. It would be a shame to have these images dashed by getting to know the 'real ' person with all his/her flaws and all. On the other hand perhaps a lifelong ' real' friendship can be established by meeting in person, but it's a risk.
So I made it to a special Mazel Tov mention on my friend, the famous SemGirl's post! Really thanks so much.
Yea, we moved pretty fast. I was sort of caught by surprise and he was too, but there really were little issues and these things do generally go faster in our circles. Take your time. Don't do anything before you feel ready.
You also hit the point of what I kept thinking, how some people you get to know here you just get certain warmth and feelings you don't have with people you know so casually in real life. In real life I think you have to know people much better before you develope those feelings. As you said, I guess a lot has to do with all the silly things and jealousy that gets in the way, which we dom't have here, because we never saw each other.
And if I'm right about 'your friend up North', oh, I didn't realize she was so beautiful too! I guess to go together with her beautiful personality.
Shalom
I'm really glad that feel comfortable sharing your blog with the man you're dating. I think openess like that is good sign!
semgirl -
First of all, i'd like to say this was a very nicely written post.
Based on my own experiences blogging, I see that people get to "know" you at a much deeper level than many of the people I see in person on a daily basis, where we keep all our conversations casual and superficial. Your guard's not up. You don't worry about boring someone or how they'll perceive you.
I think it's great that you've shared your blogworld with your guy. I would do the same -- or at least I would tell the guy that I blog - I might wait a while until I actually give him access to the site :)
Good luck with the courtship.
MH
semgirl
great decision on showing your blog to your guy i admire your openness
Hey SG... Sorry I havent written, will get to it soon, IYH. Im glad to hear that you are still dating this guy... sounds promising!
I don't have much to say about the BLog friend thing as I am new to it and still naviating my way through. All I can say is I am very careful with it. We will see how it goes...
OK, so I have no clue as to which Sem it is... enlighten us!
Glad to see you are doing well and still dating the guy - hope everything continues to go along the right course. And I think you should date until you are comfortable about making a decision. If it takes some time to feel right, then that's fine - you have to do what is best for you, not everyone else.
hope things go well with the boy.
as for everything else, i really don't know what to say, other than that sometimes seeing and speaking to someone over a long period of time can reveal personality quirks that might other wise not show up. sometimes bad mannerisms can be covered up or avoided in the short term but as you grow more comfortable with a person things just get alot more natural, and things that might otherwise not show up (for much better or worse) may begin to see light. for instance if someone is akward they might become a little warmer after alot of dates, or someone who may seem really sweet at first might start to make some really callous comments and take it all for granted.
i don't really know but these are just my thoughts. people can fake themselves for 3 dates easily, and every one is well aware how well undesireable secrets can be kept by family for fear of tarnishing shidduchim, besides in most of those cases it's better to let the couple feel out those issues on their own, for all you know their personalities may mesh so well that it becomes like not a problem
About the dating time, to wait for EVERYTHING is not smart. My Bubby always says a person is never sure until after 120. But there are other things that you have to see and sometimes it takes longer and sometimes less. it depends on personality, how complicated the person is, how open or shy they are, etc.
I was given what I think is good advice once. I was told to date as long as I felt I needed it to clarify things I felt I needed to know. Then I was told that AFTER the engagement, too much is unhealthy because of all those reasons people said, like knowing TOO much, quirks, whatever, things that are small but can turn you off if you are not married yet.
Shalom
BMG-B… yep you are #1 this time, and I even emailed Elisheva at the usual time she is online, before posting , along with 2 other friends.
Prag…you are right a year or do ago I met one or two girls I used to IM all the time, and it was a big disappointment. They were very normal online, and CREEPY in person.
Shev…” generally go faster in our circles. “ no offense my dear friend but are these different circles then Rov Bick and the Heiliger Manchester Rosh Yeshiva ZT”L , who were very adamant about being comfortable with the person you are seeing.
SW ….. Huh …. ???
Jphil… you are a thousand percent right..
MataH… Thanks , I agree we are very comfortable . It wasn’t such a big deal actually, because he is a big supporter of the Hirhurim and Chidushim blogs. He feels this is a good blog for girls, but I have to tone down some the unTzniusdik stories.
FG… Thanks I will email you..
Groinem and LWG… You may have a point, however I heard on a Pesach Krohn tape that A big Godol said six dates should be the max.. Rov Bick, vehemently disagreed and will not be Mesader Kidushin if the couple went out less then 10 times. When asked about the other Godol, he said “Ir Ken Dus Zoggin, Ir iz a Mesader Kidushin, Ich Been Leider A Mesader Gittin “
Shoshana…. Thanks for the support..
HNC… It helps if you have a good Rov or Mashpia to talk things over during the dating process..
Limey….. Am I glad I am not dating you.. Would you do something like that to another Yid… One thought for you…. Pirkei Avos… Hillel saw a skull floating on the river and said because you drowned others you were drowned……..
There is no set formula for how long a couple should date. It depends on the people involved and their needs. I think that in our times it's better to err on the side of waiting a little bit. With the complexity of personalities today, it is best not to go too far too fast. Certainly, there are exceptions. Often one party is ready to get engaged before the other. In that case, the one who is ready must have patience, and if it's meant to be it'll happen. Yes, there is a certain amount of leap of faith involved. But I've seen way too many broken engagements and I think rushing it can be a big mistake.
I think Shlomo Waxman's intention is that if you are shomer negiah with your current friend, how are you explaining to him some of the more personal postings on your blog [like Yossi with the movie, for example]?
JPhilop.... Well, obviously I shared more of my colorful past with him than I have on the blog. If he was the very judgemental type we wouldn't continue to see each other..
Sem...Good to read updates on your life once in awahile. You were one of my inspirations to start my own blog.
Keep up the good work :-)
D
I didn't realize there was a usual time I was online!
And I don't see how what I wrote seemd to contradict that you must be comfortable with the person. You definitely do! I just think that tends to happen quicker in some circles than in others. Probably because peopel who are pretty shallow (for lack of a better word) or just don't have very complex lives, can figure each other out quicker. But if that for whatever reason is not the case by someone, they should like for sure wait till they are good and ready. But that still doesn't mean there will ever be a gurantee.
Shalom
Hatzlacha;
Looking forward to reading more.
groinem - sorry, but i think that's just absurd.
hnc had it right.
i've heard of a lot of broken engagements recently (not to mention the people who stay engaged and push through with the wedding even though they're unhappy) - and i suspect that that's because people are just getting to know their chosson/kallah during the engagement, instead of during dating, which is what dating is for. as semgirl said, certain rabanim have insisted on 10 or more dates at a minimum, and i think that's healthy and makes sense. you have the rest of your life with that person. what does it matter if you take a couple of months at the outset to make sure you're a good match? why does there have to be one standard for everyone?
Semgirl, I'm sure you have now aroused a little curiosity with your last comment, but probably it's better to keep some things just between you and your new friend.
It's sounds like you have a lot in common with this young man and that's really great. Just don't jump the gun with him... Remember, you're still not married.
Geshmaker....now I am totally confused.. So why are you here...Not that I dont totally appreciate your input and comments. I am just curious.
limey, geshmaker, et al:
has it ever occured to you that semgirl could have dated this guy starting a few months ago and is already engaged? or some other variation of the truth?
she's not going to coincide her tales with events happening in the real world, if she doesn't want you all to read about her on onlysimchas.
you should all stop knocking bmgbochur so much - you just come off as jealous :)
All I can say is that a Mick Jagger and/or Keith Richards wardrobe malfunction is truly the last thing I want to see.
SG - I'm glad I finally have an opportunity to jump in! I'm glad to hear your Shidduch is still working out. You guys definitely sound like you are good for each other. It seems you both have an appreciation for living in two worlds at once. I think it's great that you showed him the blog - both in the sense that you are confident enough to reveal to him what you've told us, as well as that hashkafically you both are on the same page with your "online" life. As far as how long people should date before deciding, I think it's simple. Keep dating until you have a decision that you're comfortable with. Feel free to share with us whatever you find appropriate. We just want to hear good news, whatever it is, whenever it is!
I tried to name the Sem, but I have to admit to the same problem as BMG- I had no idea what most of those fashion terms meant. I guess I'm a visual learner - I have to see it to know it. Although I must admit, that I played the "Modern" version, which I guess is a different set of schools, and you're guessing based on gym shoes vs. sandals vs. Uggs vs. black shoes. Kind of more simple. I don't know if I could pick apart all the Beis Yaakov type schools. I don't know any sem though where the girls dress up as much as the girl in your pic. But if girls really wear that to Sem, I have to wonder what they are really learning in Sem...
To the Yeshiva contingent - Stop trying to argue who is more frei - you're all here, get over it. Going online may be risky, but you can also accomplish a lot more than sports. Figure out for yourself what is best for your frumkeit.
As far as meeting bloggers for real, it depends on your "relationship." If you simply exchange opinions online, you may be sorely disappointed by their "live" personality. But if you really get to know each other on a personal level, then I think your connection may be "real" enough to be face-to-face.
The bottom line - I want Elisheva's Bubby to start a blog!
In fact I do follow sports. I was merely commenting on the fact that seeing any part of Jagger's body uncovered will cause me to lose my lunch.
the only sem i know the uniform for is the bais rivka of crown heights, (my best friend is from there after all)
and josh, your right, it would be neat for elishevas grandmother to start a blog, from what little i'm heard she seems to be the kind of person who knows how things should be and doesn't get caught up in the modern shtussim, and therefore it would be facinating to hear what she has to say an a whole range of topics.
i think that the observation that if your very shallow then you don't need to spend very much time but if you have alot of depth to you then you should is very true.
honestly, i'm not enitrely comfortable with the idea of closing the shidduchim quickly. sometimes it is better to wait along time on a shidduch, sometimes it's not.
Blogger bites. this thing goes down all the time.
I'm just wondering, am I strange that I'm not terribly excited to start the whole dating process? I put myself in a self-inflicted "freezer" because I don't think I'm ready. But then I decide I am, and I want to get married and start a new chapter, complete my soul and that whole business, but then I stop short and question my motives. Marriage is one of the biggest, holiest steps in our lives -wouldn't it be better if I make sure I am who I am before I start dating? Also, after all those years in a system of "stay away from boys", does anyone else find it difficult to make an about face and spend one on one time with, gosh, a guy?
And besides all the above, there is that horrid, dreaded question: Am I the girl I want my (future) husband to marry?
hey semgirl ... long time, no post. hope you're well.
could you please do me a small favor and click on my name, come to my blog and find my email address near the bottom of my sidebar (which i'd prefer not to post in the comments section). if you could email me, i need to ask you something. thanks,
erica
OTD- Thanks. I know, I know, we all gotta grow up sometimes. But it's new and scary... whoa that reminds me of the class I taught today on making that jump into the Yam Suf...creepy...
I totally agree with OTD, but it really depends on age. If you are like 18 and very immature, then for sure you need to put dating on hold. But if you are 22 or old, either get your act together fast, or take a good Shidduch, with LOTS of guidance from older siblings, married friends, and your family's Rov and grow up with your husband together.
Its unfortunate, but when you reach a certain age, especially for girls, your available "normal" boys greatly diminishes. I don't mean to scare you, OJ, but after a certain point , you really don't have the luxury of being in the "freezer" .. Best of luck in your endeavors.
I agree to all the above! Basically, a girl should make sure she's ready, but she doesn't have to wait until she's crispy, well done will do...oh, that is such a wrong analogy. Anyway, LWG, you are so right -and it's actually really sad; I've seen it happen too many times.
nice post about blog friends :)
Knowit...You should meet my friends in real life..LOL..
Wow, I finally have time to visit my favorite blog! It's always cooking here and I am so sorry I can't check it out more often.
Okee J, I just wanted to say that I had some similar resevations to you, like am I the girl I want my husband to marry. But I was told by a very chashuv kollel guy that there is a major difference between what you believ in, like where are you heading, and what you are.
Like we are human and do silly things and aren't perfect. neither are most guys. So we can grow together. The more imprtant thing is to make sure we belive in the same things and that we are heading in the same direction and want to end up at the same goal. We don't always have to be there yet.
Just food for thought. I know it helped me a lot.
Shalom
thanks, shev
Welcome back, Shev. You didnt really miss much, as this was the worst week in the history of my blog. I decided to get creative and ignore the KISS principle (Keep It Simple, Stupid ). In the process , I destroyed my template about a hundred times with "help" . Comments were being diverted to Yahoo, nearly lost all my archives. Don't ask . What could go wrong, did. Hope I am back to normal now.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
But what is the name of that seminary? The Sara Schneir Fashion Institute of Technology? Bais Yaakov Modeling School where you can become a model or just look like one?
j Philop, you are funny. If you dress well, they complain, if you don't Shidduchim, don't really take off. Sort of reminds me of the Medrash with the boy, the old man, and the donkey..
Clothing really is a means of communication. It says something about who you are, your priorities, beliefs, values, etc. So whatever you do someone isn't going to like it. I just try to be my own man and say to heck with everyone else. I work in a company with 2000 employees and I am the only person who does or who ever has worn visible tzitzis.
I am still hoping you'll email me some photos of yourself so I can critique your fashion sense.
"I am still hoping you'll email me some photos of yourself so I can critique your fashion sense. "
JP..I'm confused why would someone who makes such a tremendous Kiddush Hashem at work, want to do something so un-Tzniusdik. B"h, there are many ladies that I know, who do a very good job of giving fashion advice.
SemG, I doubt that viewing the photo of a Lakewood seminary girl would totally corrupt an old man like me; especially someone on your level of tznius.
However I am relieved to hear that you are getting tons of great advice. You know how I worry.
hey semgirl, i like the skirt....
OTD... Speak to later..
Just a comment someone mentioned to me-could you open your comments to non bloggers too?
exsem... Unfortunately, there are a lot of immature , puerile guys out there that would abuse that, and write all sorts of inappropriate things as "anonymous" and I would have to moderate continuously which is a pain..
Anyone who doesn't want to get a blog ID , which takes five minutes and you dont even have to write anything on the blog created or do anything with it is welcome to email me privately.
You got moderation on, Staig, maybe see what happens if you turn it off.
A question occured to me on the bus this morning. I noticed a very pretty girl wearing a lot of makeup. I'm just wondering - WHY?
Pretty women look pretty without makeup. Ugly women look ugly with it. This is just my opinion. Am I alone in this? [Boruch Hashem my wife never wears makeup - not any chumrah, she doesn't like it. Maybe that's one reason I married her...]
I still have a suspicion that advertising from the cosmetics industry plays a big role.
Again, it may be just me. Maybe other guys love girls with makeup.
I don't think that wanting to look your best is vain. But I think the real idea behind makeup is that makeup is supposed to give a woman a more healthy appearance. Red lips, rosy cheeks and a good complexion are all signs of good health and a male is naturally more attracted to a healthy female than he is too a sick one.
All this is well and good, however I personally feel that it would be preferable for girls to actually be healthy, rather than to try and just look healthy with cosmetics. I recommend "Nutrition for Dummies" and "Fitness for Dummies". Eat properly. Throw out the junk food. Have a salad with low calorie dressing. Exercise. Get off the web. (Except of course for the SemGirl blog, which is essential.) Go to a gym. Run a few miles every day. I predict that in six months you’ll feel better and have a natural glow.
If there’s a more serious problem, like bad acne, it's a good idea to see a dermatologist. I use Dr. Strenger in Monsey.
Maybe I’m an old fashioned guy, but that’s my opinion. And it worked for my wife.
I do believe in perfume however. If it's really good.
Jewish philosopher -
The best compliment a girl can get is that she doesn’t look like she's wearing makeup when she is. Makeup is meant to enhance beauty not to coat the skin in an artificial colour!!
If you see the makeup and then the girl-forget it she's got it all wrong. But if you see the girl looking good and only at a closer glance notice the makeup then she's got it right. Unfortunately there are few who actually know how to wear makeup well.
Regarding health-don't tell me that you look perfectly healthy all of the time. We all have our down days (girls especially!) and a little makeup does the trick.
Regarding perfume-halachicly it's very problematic as not man may smell a woman's perfume unless he's her husband, father, brother or son. So as I am single there are very few opportunities for me...Though I find few know or hold of this halacha...
I am impressed by your concern about the halachic problems of perfume, but wouldn't the same issue actually apply to makeup? After all, an unrelated man may also not a appreciate girl's pretty face.
My point was of course that even when a woman is encouraged to be attractive for example for husband I believe that really good quality perfume can help, makeup really doesn't.
OTD…You are welcome.. I love your blog
JP… I’m surprised at you.. Looking at women on the bus. Actually, the Gematta says not like you. I believe I once heard, correct me if I am wrong, that there was a big sage mentioned in Cetuvos whose main occupation was making the ugliest Callas look beautiful for their Chasana. The Gamarra describes different plants and roots that achieved the required results.
I hope that isn’t the main reason you married her.
Chilling… I think you and me are basically saying the same thing.
OTD… I think I know what you mean..I used to have a neighbor that desperately needed makeup , especially foundation and rouge . With it , she was a glamorous beauty, without it , she really looked hideous. I really felt bad for her on a three day Yom Tov.
ExSem… Absolutely, the rule is , if your makeup is obvious , you put on too much. I highly recommend the Victoria Jackson videos.available at www.vmakeup.com. She is famous for the no makeup look.
As for perfume, if you were a high school girl, you might be right. But if you are of Shidduch age, there is definitely a heter. Obviously, always ask your own Rov. If memory serves me, even in the Rabbi Falk book it says that the Gamarra is referring to wearing a broche with fragrant spices that is ossur, as opposed to our perfume that is absorbed by the skin and isn’t really tangible. Also, Rashi and many Rishonim hold that the halacha is specifically talking about a Married lady. In Seminary, that book was ingrained in my head, lol.
Regarding looking at pretty girls on the bus, Semgirl, well I hate to disappoint you, however you are not the only human with hormones. I'll leave it at that.
I would be curious to see a source in Chazal which actually encourages cosmetic usage. I can't think of one off hand. I would be grateful for a citation
And if my wife used a lot a makeup, something I hate, that would have been an issue. However this isn't the only reason I married her. There were another one or two good qualities.
Sorry, I've been mising on all this.
About the make-up. I guess it's something the girls understand. You can be good looking and have a bad day. No it won't make you become pretty if you're not. But it can hide eyes dark from lack of sleep, pale skin, and other things which can depend on hormones and stuff even of you are healthy. Girl's bodies are different and skin changes with the seasins and everything. Make-up is a lifesaver for these times.
I totally do not wear a lot of make up, and like was said already, the best compliment is that I look like I am not. And the truth is I do not wear that much. But the little enhancm,ents make a big difference. And it can not be the cosmetic ads if the gemara is full of reference to it.
Perfume was not allowed in my home. I have to look in Rabbi Falk's book. If he lets then I wasted the last couple of years! I wonder what my mother will say.. The book is her Torah, lol. Too late, I guess. After we get married I was told it is okay at home, and okay outside as long as it is not obvious to everyone passing by and just subtle when you get close. I guess everyone has their own minhag or psak.
Shalom
Wearing cosmetics has been a common practice since time immemorial and it may be a reasonable option for a older woman to restore a more vigous, youthful appearance. However it's obviously a lot better to actually be vigorous and youthful.
Another pet peeve I have is hair coloring. I haven't noticed this among the sem girl crowd yet, boruch Hashem, however at work it is so common. I think it should be outlawed, it's usually so bad.
The Talmud Bavli Bava Kama 82a towards the top states "Ezra established 10 statutes ... peddlers should travel through the villages" Rashi explains "bringing spices to woman to decorate themselves with them".
This seems to promote perfume usage, and I will agree with Ezra on this [not that he needs my endorsement]. Good perfume is really nice.
I think wearing perfume is not a problem for the woman to the best of my knowledge. It is a problem for men. Just like a man is not supposed to stare at prohibited women for the sake of sexual satisfaction, the same applies to sniffing a forbidden woman's perfume.
Hey Limey.. You can post Gamarras and other sources, here whenever you want. But, English translation, please. Hello !!! Its a girl's blog.
JP- "...but wouldn't the same issue actually apply to makeup? After all, an unrelated man may also not a appreciate girl's pretty face."
So would you think that every woman has to go around completely covered like the Arab woman???
That is not what halacha requires us to do. But yes looking deliberately provocative is forbidden but attractive isn't. There is a difference!
Semgirl-my quote and learning of the halacha of perfume was from a shiur on tznius that Rabbi Falk gave in London a while ago. He clearly said that no man who is not a woman's relative may smell her perfume. Of course we each have our own unique smell and we may make it pleasant-but for a guy to distinctly smell it is provocative and thus forbidden. Especially on a shidduch. Perfumes are made deliberately to attract the opposite sex and therefore they are a powerful tool that one should treasure and use carefully.
Limey, no fair. I am so curious. At least tell us the gist of what that gemara means...
About what I wrote about perfume after marriage, it is what my parents always said and i told my chosson and he said fine. So I guess now it's set. Can't wait. I'll be like the kid in the candy store, lol. I have my ideas already, but I am open to any good suffestions. But only the natural subtle smell. I hate the powerful, cheap, chemical smell.
Shalom
First of all, wearing miniskirts is prohibited by halochah. Perfume is not prohibited by halochah and in fact is even encouraged by halochah as per the gemora in Bava Kama 82a. However a man is not allowed to benefit from a forbidden woman, if I am not mistaken.
Makeup to the best of my knowledge is not encouraged or discouraged by halochah, perhaps because it just doesn't look good anyway.
Rabbi Falk's book, incidentally, I believe is not halochah. It is one rabbi's advice and actually primarily deals with developing good character traits such as humility which, while the core of Judaism, varies a great deal according to different circumstances. His sources should always be checked.
Limey, I appreciate your effort. But you do realize that this is the Soncino translation from a questionable website. I will try and post the ArtScroll version later..
As I understand it the gemora in Sanhedrin merely comments that the perfume peddlers were often beaten by jealous husbands who came to find them alone with their wives. It doesn't say they were wicked.
The whole makeup/perfume issue is also the question of how good can u look? Can a single woman really find the correct balance between looking attractive and looking attracting? Should I wear less mascara since the 7-11 guy called me honey? Or maybe he just likes girls who love slurpees...Food for thought...
Regarding how women should dress, certain clear cut rules are settled by halochah. For example, no miniskirts, pants, married women must cover their hair. Beyond that I believe it's actually a question of good character traits, which applies to men as well as women and applies to everything else in life.
Let's say I'm a man and I happen to have nice pecs [I lift weights a little]. Let's say I choose to wear really tight T shirts to show them off. Is that prohibited? Not really. But what does that show about my character - my middos? If I have it I want to flaunt it? Isn't that self centered? Aren't I missing the entire point of Judaism, which is to be a selfless person? Maybe when I'm undressing my wife wants to see me and maybe that's fine, it's for a positive reason. But's what positive reason is there for me to show off to the whole world?
Also, just by the way, I think makeup may be more about bolstering a girl's self confidence than improving her appearance. Perhaps it creates a sort of "mask". My advice is: Don't be insecure!
JP...easier said than done.. But this was all discussed in my self-esteem post, why are we rehashing it all.
Semgirl, you mean the makeup thing is in your self esteem post? But I think you are for it and I'm against it.
One other point. There is no need to cover up small skin flaws. Seriously, it just looks normal. I don't think men really want women to look like plastic Barbie dolls.
Also, maybe retitle the Self Esteem post "Make Up". That would have made it clearer to me that this was really pretty much covered already.
Ms. shtark- I get asked that question alllll the time by family friends-'specially the women who don't cover their hair...and i answer that the issue of covering hair is NOT about making a women look unattractive. That is not the main purpose of tznius either. Tznius means hiding what is precious. When women get married, they gain a new sensitivity to tznius, and so they cover their hair- which is a very precious feminine trait. Hair emerges from the head, so it is indicative of internality. We hide it, to "save"-so to speak-that precious internality for our husbands (and more importantly, ourselves. And then I finish up by saying that the issue of hair covering goes above and beyond what I just said, and if they want to know more, or if they want sources, i could get back to them. I hope that helps!
Probably the best answer, regarding wigs, is "I don't really know why wigs are OK and hair isn't. It's just a Jewish tradition." That may be the most accurate answer.
In other words, Jewish women at some point (maybe from the time of Sarah?) accepted upon themselves to cover their hair, however they, for whatever reason, accepted this as applying only after marriage and they allowed the usage of wigs.
(Muslim women by the way cover even in childhood and do not use wigs.)
Of course, many poskim would agree with your co-workers, that wigs are just the same as hair and therefore forbidden.
Although many Hungarian Rebbes and Chasidishe poskim hold that one should shave their head and wear a kerchief or a Turban, the prevailing custom in our circles is to cover our hair after marriage in a tasteful, pleasant manner.
Firstly, to show that a Jewish lady can be Modest without being hideous. Because the ways of the Torah are ways of pleasantness.
It goes without saying that a glamorous Hollywood-like custom wig, may fulfill the letter of the law but not the spirit in which the Halacha was intended. Any competent Rov, who is being honest with you will tell you that.
Actually, a wig is very questionable. See the Mishnah Brurah siman 75 sif koton 15. I think some Sefardi women are machmir as well.
Showing off ones good looks, for a man or woman, married or single, is improper self centeredness - gaavah.
No fair, you brought in another maggid shiur in my absence! :)
This week's post is up, enjoy...
DM... Thanks for the compiment, however I don't appreciate you leaving links on my blog to your perverted porn site.
PP...welcome back Rebbi.. so you are welcome to join in on the discussion
PP, I hope you don't mean me. I'm hardly a maggid shiur. Just a bored computer programmer trying to cope with midlife crisis.
Rav Moshe writes in Igros Moshe on the subject of sheitels to a guy who apparently doesn't want to let his wife wear one on halachic grounds (why he asked Rav Moshe, whose wife wore one, I haven't figured out yet) after a long exaplanation of why it's ok, he adds:
And if you are clean-shaven, then you have no grounds to open your mouth. The Torah forbids shaving with a razor, so where is your beard? Ela mai, you'll answer, everybody knows that there's kosher ways to shave today. Well everybody knows that ladies are wearing wigs too. So if you accept the first for yourself, how dare you deny your wife the 2nd!
A sefardi friend did tell me that Rav Ovadyah Yosef holds that sefardi women shouldn't (aren't allowed to?) wear sheitels even today. I assure you kitniyos one week a year isn't worth having to give up your sheitel! :)
OK, I think enough time has passed. Mazel tov!!!!! You should be zocheh to build a bayis of torah and love.
Shmuel: ?
If Semgirl is about to join the ranks of the happily married, will she wear a wig?
I appreciate the brochas from everyone, but obviously for anonymity purposes, you all realize that this blog is not done in real-time .
And yes, JP, of course I would wear a wig. Do you mean as opposed to wearing my own hair, or as opposed to wearing a turban or hat, specifically and not a wig.
I think Semgirl means she is already married and expecting. I guess we will get invited to the bris when she is really making the bar mitzvah.
Semgirl, I actually imagine you in a snood and a long denim skirt with sneakers (I approve of sneakers - good for your knees).
And don't gain too much during the pregnancy. You will lose all your admirers.
I am sorry MB.. there is really a lot going on in my life, right now. I will try and post as soon as I can.
Probably morning sickness.
Don't worry, SemG. You're going to be OK. Hang in there.
Groinem...welcome back !!
First of all, my father spoke to the Manchester RY, before he got engaged, and was told basically keep going out until you are comfortable. Obviously, within reason..
" Us Yidden know that it is spiritually and morally unhealthy for a boy tro be friendly with a girl and therefore we developed a new system that includes a lot of checking out and a Sheva Berachos to get to know the stranger you married. I did it that way and after 5 years and 3 children I think I am still doing fine with no ill effects. "
I wish you a lot of Nachas and Mazal with your family ad meir v'esrim. But, for every story like yours there are unfortunately an even number of divorces.
You know in Sweden most couples have children before officially marrying. And they still have a very high divorce rate.
The secret to avoid divorce is to not want to get divorced.
MC: Any and all opininons are welcome on this forum. Thank you for your input.
MC- Why do you even bother? You're a jerk, SG may have held back but I don't care to. Take your holier than thou attitude elsewhere, lowlife.
purim sameach!!
and good on you for helping organise tehilim.
The skirt that you show in the picture is amazing and the comment:
" Simple patent leather pomps, nude hosiery, stylish navy blue skirt fashionably below the knee with a with white trim, white ruffled blouse, with blue tailored jacket, hair in a curly wave. Very conservative, yet tastefully applied makeup."
makes me wish that I could see you dressed up. I am way into modest clothing on frum women, and I find that fashion choice your mentioned quite attractive.
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