SEMGIRL

Hi, I was just your typical 19 year old Seminary girl in South Jersey (if you don't know where I mean, you are probably on the wrong blog). We all have nisoynos, challenges, and experiences, both positive and negative. Here is where I have decided to share some of them.

Name:
Location: Lakewood, New Jersey, United States

Wednesday, August 03, 2005

Interview with Yeshiva Bochur

Here are answers and feelings to EN's questions


Here are the interview questions: 1) If you were able to get an entire make over, breast implants, lipsuction, nose job ect. Would you? Why or why not?

I obviously don’t need implants as I am already a DD, in fact I was the biggest in my 12th grade class. But I definitely would do everything else, including a nose job, remove a little from the hips, lighten my complexion, improve my smile, and have nicer legs. It is very important for an adolescent girl to look and feel her best, as self-esteem is very crucial. Also, as the Shidduch market becomes more and more competitive all the time, you need every advantage. That is not at all to say that I am vain and superficial, just that you need to make every normal histadlus you can.

2)If you were able to press a button and become not Jewish, would you? Why or why not?
No, I definitely wouldn’t, because being Jewish defines who I am as a person. Without that I wouldn’t be me. Also, I am immensely proud to be or at least try to be a Bas Yisroel.


3What changes would you like to make to the Yeshivish System and why?
For starters, I feel it is important to give girls much more learning and values to survive in America of the 21th century . In my community, high school and seminaries, the vast majority (there are exceptions), of girls and teacher are mindless autonotoms that only know how to be “frum” in a place like Lakewood or Boro Park, but could not go to Auckland, New Zealand and be a beacon of Jewish traditions, morals, and values. They go on to be married ladies that are workhorses/sex-objects, as opposed to being shining examples of Jewish womenhood, for example, Bruria, Rashi’s daughters, or Reb Ahron’s mother.
The boys should be molded into men possessing Middos, Derech Eretz, and above all Menslichkeit. As opposed to conformist, black-hatted monkee-see/monkee-do jerks. Once again, this isn’t all bochurim, but far too many.

4) If you were a parent what would you tell your daughter who had/ or wanted to have sex before marriage?
As hypocritical as this sounds, once I grow up and get past the hormonal craziness of my age, I would caution my daughter that once you give it away you can’t take it back. I would tell her not to do something she will regret for the rest of her life. Because the emotional, and psychological scars are permanent.

5)Who is your role model for life?

Definitely, my grandmother. She came here from Hungary in 1905. America was a very hostile place for Jews then. She didn’t cover her hair, keep Cholov Yisroel, or constantly preach about how sheer your tights are, but she possessed more core Jewish values, Chesed, and Yiras Shomayim, in her lil finger than anyone I know who is alive today. She was very vibrant, tenacious, tough, and above all sincere. I only wish I can grow to be 1% the woman she was.


Now the rules again: ( You need to put these in your post) 1) Leave me a comment saying "interview me please." 2)I will respond by asking you five questions ( not the same as above) 3)You will update your blog/site with the answers to the questions. 4) You will include this explanation and an offer to interview someone else in the same post. 5) When others comment asking to be interviewed you will ask them five questions.

82 Comments:

Blogger The Real Neo said...

intrview me please

8/04/2005 1:54 AM  
Blogger The real me said...

I agree with the education thing, my sisters are fairly educated in torah, but I would want my daughters to be able to learn much more.

8/04/2005 4:03 AM  
Blogger Elisheva said...

Semgirl, I loved your answer to number 3! I totally think we don't get the beauty of beiing a bas yisroel or a yiddishe mother stressed enough, more than working to support Torah, and dressing pretty for your husband (and only him!)
BTW, I wonder if you meant R' Ahrons wife. I know she was a very special lady, and some ppl in my family actually knew her and have such beautiful things to say about her.
Also, about the DD size. Read the comments on my blog, and you'll see that your making all the poor boys drool, and they will have no more head for anything today!

8/04/2005 9:06 AM  
Blogger EN said...

Semgirl-Great answers! I really like answers 2 and 4.

8/04/2005 9:16 AM  
Blogger Halfnutcase said...

interview me please

8/04/2005 9:22 AM  
Blogger Halfnutcase said...

thank g-d i don't obsess over sizes. -.-;; and sem girl, elisheva is right. most boys will obsess over that dd comment. that's one of the things i was taught, the more you have the more tzius you should dress. it'll make you feel better about you're self. (asside from the side benifite of the bochurim not drooling at you like idiots!) you have so many midos that are way better than that side trait. (or it seems, we always are diffrent on the net.)

8/04/2005 9:34 AM  
Blogger fsgsf said...

Great answers!! Interview me please!

Peace!

Nj from NJ

8/04/2005 10:45 AM  
Blogger Elster said...

Nice answers.

8/04/2005 11:00 AM  
Blogger fsgsf said...

Thanks for the questions SG, i posted them with my answers! check them out!

Peace!
NJ from NJ

8/04/2005 1:53 PM  
Blogger Ben Sorer Moreh said...

SG, thanks for sharing. I wish people growing up were taught to accept their bodies (and those of the people around them) as unique and beautiful regardless of shape. We should all try our best to be fit and healthy, but I cringe at the tendency and pressure to cut out parts of our bodies and insert objects into others. Then again, my life might be a little easier if I were taller...

Interview me please

8/04/2005 3:03 PM  
Blogger ClooJew said...

Semgirl,

I have gotten on your case in the past, lulei demistafina, so I have to say that this was a very mature, thoughtful post.

I'm kind of surprised. This is not the SemGirl I thought I knew!

8/04/2005 3:33 PM  
Blogger Cool BT said...

semgirl, I find it ironic that you want plastic surgery to have the competitive edge yet you don't see proper behavior as an element that would help you (fun with mr. frisky). It seems that you are more concerned with what others "see" and not with what you "do." In G-d's world what do you think will help you most find a good shidduch... plastic surgery or behaving modestly? Besides would you really want a guy that picked you because of your plastic surgery modifications?

8/04/2005 8:14 PM  
Blogger Halfnutcase said...

she's really alright. it's normal. it's not like she's actualy saving up money for it!

though, when can we expect the questions to be given? (and how?)

8/04/2005 9:16 PM  
Blogger ClooJew said...

Hate to admit it, but lulei demistafina, looks DO count even in frummyfrum circles. Don't forget, if all goes right, this will be the only person the other partner EVER sleeps with.

8/04/2005 10:05 PM  
Blogger Semgirl said...

Thank you.. CJ my point exactly..

Cool BT :

I don't want to embarrash you or lead you to believe you didn't make the right choice. The frum community is really a beautiful place. However, you are obviously a VERY NEW BT, and still extremely naive.

Spend a year in a mainstream Yeshiva, and live in Lakewood or BP, for a year or two. Then email me and we'll see what your thoughts are on the matter.

8/04/2005 10:45 PM  
Blogger rachel said...

Sem girl,
I think you kind of expressed the root of your problem when u wrote what u would change from the yeshiva system. Learning the basics is not enough for any girl living in the 21st century. The way it used to be was that the girls were taught all the mitzvos they needed to know and that was sufficient. Girls were not taught anything more than that, because they were busy cooking and sewing.... Nowadays girls learn every subject and are exposed to all kinds of literature. If a girl is learning all the psychology, politics, and theories of the world why shouldnt she be fully educated in all the jewish concepts too? And I'm not talking about learning just the surface but digging deeper into the insight and finding clarity.
Learning sharpens the mind.
Learning Torah is not only intellect but its understanding and obviously through understanding we apply that to our lives.

8/05/2005 1:08 AM  
Blogger Pragmatician said...

It's so beautiful the way you describe your grandmother, indeed back then they know what "frum" really meant.
People would look further that unattractive clothing and Shtreimels to define an orthodox Jew.

8/05/2005 4:31 AM  
Blogger Elster said...

Rachel:

You have expressed the "Machlokes" if you will, between the yeshivish world and the YU world. Congrats.

8/05/2005 9:56 AM  
Blogger Hoezentragerin said...

"looks DO count even in frummyfrum circles."

CJ,
I would venture to say that looks are almost all that counts especially in frummyfrum circles.

8/05/2005 10:03 AM  
Blogger Halfnutcase said...

far to true... unfortunately

8/05/2005 10:17 AM  
Blogger fsgsf said...

Hoezintragin, I agree with you totally!! All that matters is looks ( and money) they dont care about the inside or other important factors! sad indeed!!

Peace!

NJ from NJ

8/05/2005 10:25 AM  
Blogger Cool BT said...

Semgirl, lol, I have spend 3 years in Yeshiva learning full time. I have even worked my way up to the Mir Yeshiva :) I have hung around the "community" for almost 6 years. I have seen the good and the bad. So is my post valid now?

8/05/2005 10:33 AM  
Blogger Cool BT said...

Cloojew, I agree that looks count. We know from the Gemora in Kiddushin that a man has to be attracted to his wife. However I don't think the Gemora would have suggested cosmetic surgery to women.

8/05/2005 10:35 AM  
Blogger Halfnutcase said...

BT

semgirl is right, you really are still a "young" BT whether or not you have been in the community for a while.

8/05/2005 11:10 AM  
Blogger Elster said...

Just a point: Of COUSE looks matter. It has nothing to do with "frummy" world. It's a fact of life. People want a spouse that they are physically attracted to as well as emotionally and mentally. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT.

The PROBLEM, however, is that today's society puts too much of a premium on a certain type of look; and that has somehow filtered into the religious community too. I say somehow since, as has been pointed out by many here, many yeshiva students don't watch tv, movies or look at magazines, yet somehoe still "just seem to know" that the only acceptable body type is very very thin with a nice sized chest. Go figure.

Anyway, the point is that yes, people need to be physically attracted to each other but no, not every girl or guy needs to be a supermodel or George Clooney to be considered good looking.

8/05/2005 11:14 AM  
Blogger Elster said...

SG:

Also: I don't link ANYONE (so it's nothing personal) and I don't ask to be interviewed. Those are my blog don'ts.

8/05/2005 12:06 PM  
Blogger ClooJew said...

Hoezen,

You write: "I would venture to say that looks are almost all that counts especially in frummyfrum circles."

Especially? So you're saying that values play no role in frum circles, and that values are more cherished in, say, secular circles?

And you "totally agree" with this, NormalJew?

I'm in line, lulei demistafina, with Elster's comments. That it makes a bigger difference today--but that's across the board. Do any of you work for a living and listen to the way secular people talk about women?

8/05/2005 3:26 PM  
Blogger Hoezentragerin said...

Especially? So you're saying that values play no role in frum circles, and that values are more cherished in, say, secular circles?

Yes CJ,
Personality, brains, humor and talent are more cherished in other circles.
The definitions of beauty and attraction are more shallow and rigid in the yeshivishe world than it is elsewhere.

In Your world it's all about numbers, size 4 versus size 6, 34/c over 34/b.
Most guys don't even know what sex-appeal means.
It's all about "what will my friends think."

8/07/2005 12:32 AM  
Blogger Classmate-Wearing-Yarmulka said...

Considering the large % of yeshive guys who marry the first or second girl they go out with, I think its safe to say that looks aren't everything. If they were so shallow and superficial, wouldn't you think they'd date a few more people, with the hopes of finding someone more attractive?

8/07/2005 12:38 AM  
Blogger brianna said...

"I would caution my daughter that once you give it away you can’t take it back." --Semgirl

What's this giving away thing all about? Virginity isn't a commodity, you know. And if you're talking about the emotional aspect, it depends on the girl.

Just curious: Would you have a different approach when it comes to you son?

8/07/2005 1:09 AM  
Blogger The real me said...

Bri:

If it was a commodity you could buy it back, being that its not... I think that was her point.

Its more a state of mind then anything else, so it would seem to apply to boys as well.

8/07/2005 1:20 AM  
Blogger ClooJew said...

"In Your world it's all about numbers, size 4 versus size 6, 34/c over 34/b."--hoetzen

So now, lulei demistafina, you wish to foist your bigotry on me specifically. What do you know about "my" world? Do you presume me to be a "frummyfrum"?

I'm sure you know lots of people that fit the description you give. I do too.

But I, being open and fair-minded, don't lump the bad apples in with everyone from that cultural grouping simply because of some axe that clearly needs grinding.

8/07/2005 3:00 AM  
Blogger turquoiseblue said...

I have to agree with Rachel. I was just discussing this with my husband this Shabbos... Why aren't girls learning deeper Jewish subjects... when that can strengthen their emunah in so many ways - if they are delving into secular studies so deeply... This generation needs a completely new approach. The kind that gives girls, as much as boys, the "tools" to be able to continue in the right path, and build a solid foundation for the next generation. Not only leadership that tells you "do this - and this - and this - JUST BECAUSE." or even "JUST BECAUSE IT IS RIGHT".

Its a shame, for example, why I never learned Chovos Halvovos - or wasn't even "directed" to it. I learn/read it now with its english translation - and has taken away so much doubt... The author actually ENCOURAGES you to ask questions, think for yourself... investigate. And then, only then, can you have TRUE emunah. And bitachon.

There is SO MUCH I want to write about this subject. Maybe I should start my own blog... :)

8/07/2005 3:41 AM  
Blogger turquoiseblue said...

What amazes me the most - is how that certain "emptiness" is felt all across the board. From every side of the frum spectrum... I used to think it was only in "my circle" - which is the ultra-orthodox chasidish circle... and was quite shocked in the last few months to realize that the disenfranchised are coming "out" (online) from so many different circles - some of which in my mind seemed like they WERE getting the "balance" right...
So that definitely threw me off-guard. What I decided was - I have to create my own "system". Something that will work for me, my family - meaning - anything beyond halachah - I will TRY to get to the bottom of, anything that I've been taught all my life as "do it just because" and I am uncomfortable with. And if I find that there is a good basis for it - will continue.
Because,I used to think "If I just changed to the litvish way of doing things - then I'll be getting the balance right. My kids will not have to go through feeling that emptiness, that grasping at straws feeling." Yet, I realize now that the "grass aint greener on the other side". In fact, there are so many things that I love, and feel are so RIGHT with the (age-old, not new-age) Chasidish concept.

So - for me, I will start cherry-picking. But of course, basic Torah/halachah - that's untouchable.

May Hashem help us all see more clearly - and lead us along the right path - so that we can accomplish what it is He sent us down in this world to do. Joyfully.

8/07/2005 4:05 AM  
Blogger Hoezentragerin said...

.. simply because of some axe that clearly needs grinding.

CJ, you're right , I do have an axe to grind.
And those are my going on 30 single/ yeshivisha friends.
I have a friend who is a shadchun on "Saw you at Sinai."
He tells me about the guys who claim to be seriously looking for marriage, (45 year olds of course only looking for women 28-34), while they keep on rejecting his proposals because no one is attractive enough.

As for calling it "your world," I'm sorry for offending you.
I am Chasidish though I don't fit most profiles.
When others talk about issues in the Chasidishe world and throw them at me, I have no problem addressing them even if I am not the status quo.
CJ, I have read enough of your comments to get a feeling of where you're coming from.
That does not mean I ever meant to imply that the issues I addressed were pertinent to you personally.

8/07/2005 9:28 AM  
Blogger Halfnutcase said...

just my two cents but:

for one, the boys are being for all intensive purposes forced to only look at the girls as objects of desire, simply by making it that they have no real ability to realize that they are people also, and yet worse the only reason that the chassidish world these days seems to be marrying them off is because they can't "take" the supression stuff anymore. it's sad, but i think rather true. the boys are silently being encouraged to look at them this way. i personaly think we need to lighten up just a little bit.

and about the learning, you all are definitely right. the girls need to be encouraged to learn more material, in all aspects. and they need, as sem girl said, more oppertunities for spiritual growth.

8/07/2005 10:25 AM  
Blogger Josh said...

TB - I think you're right that our Jewish education system is inadequate. But it's not just a female education issue. As you say, the grass isn't greener in any community, and there are plenty of communities where the girls learn alongside the guys. But it's not the curriculum that determines satisfaction and fulfillment. It's the ability to ask questions. Everybody will have their own aspects of the religion that bother them. When these issues are belittled or ignored by their parents or teachers, it creates doubt and resentment.

What we need to do is encourage the asking of questions, knowing that there is an answer for everything. We just need to be open minded and understanding that questions are legitimate. And those asking the questions need to be open minded and keep looking for answers.

8/07/2005 11:29 AM  
Blogger Semgirl said...

TB, I couldn't agree with you more. Can I go to your nite-Sem classes.

8/07/2005 1:02 PM  
Blogger turquoiseblue said...

Exactly. You summed up what I was trying to say. (Since I am female, I was talking from that perspective.)

Education and Chinuch should be about giving children/adults the TOOLS to be a g-d-fearing, Torah-true jew that make a kiddush hashem with every transaction/action - no matter WHERE in the world they may find themselves at any given moment(like semgirl said.)

It's all about ENCOURAGING questions - instead of making one feel like your'e committing the worst sin just by thinking of asking them.

8/07/2005 1:06 PM  
Blogger ClooJew said...

turquoiseblue,

Your post, while somewhat disheartening, was a pleasure to see. Yes, there is a certain amount of disenfranchisement across the board--and everyone must find his and her own unique path toward G-d and Torah.

It's important, lulei demistafina, for each of us to look inward and see what we can do to fix ourselves, and hopefully that will filter out to others by way of ideas and encouragement, rather than blame other "factions" for all the problems of the Jewish people.

I hope you, turquoiseblue, find your answers, even as I seek mine.

8/07/2005 6:10 PM  
Blogger ClooJew said...

Hoezen,

No doubt these are problems--but go to the Upper West Side; the MO's are doing the same dance. It's not a yeshivishe problem; it's a post-30 problem.

And I'm glad, lulei demistafina, that we can discuss this like gentlemen.

8/07/2005 6:12 PM  
Blogger Elisheva said...

Very fascinating comments.
I just wanted to say that I agree with SemGirl and TB that we aren't taught nearly enough REAL stuff about the thinkings and feelings of yiddishkeit. But I don't think the boys learn any more. If anything they learn even less. I just think lots of them are shallower (not all!! sorry...Surely not you, CJ) and these things don't bother them as much. But my brothers don't learn a thing besides gemara as far as I know, not even chumash once they are older! Forget chovos halevavos. I doubt they even heard of it. I do wish I could learn that.
I found that there are like lots of tapes that are very good in this aspect, like R' Orlofsky and others.

8/07/2005 6:50 PM  
Blogger Elster said...

WOW:

I'm late to jump back into this one. Here goes:

I agree with EVERYTHING ClooJew said in this thread. Wow.


Turqoise: Alas, your points are sad but true. 2 things: 1) In the chareidi community (and you probably know this better than I) it's simply seen as a halachic issue. "They" look at those poskim who have said, simply put, that it's better to burn a sefer torah than to teach torah shebaal peh to women. This is not true in the Yeshivah University "movement" and others. The Rav taugh gemara to women and now there are many girl's high schools were girls are learning formerly taboo subjects like gemara, etc. Of course, many in the chareidi community look at the YU movement as no better than Reform judaism so...

2) Education in general: Absolutely for the birds. I am amazed how Jewish high schools can be charging parents $13,000 a year (yes, that is not a misprint) and teach the kids so poorly. And yes, it is true for boys as well as girls. Boys in many schools learn only gemara - with no premium at all being pt on the starter tools like, oh, learning HEBREW!! Like learning Nach - though you cannot read 2 lines of gemara without a quote from Torah Neveim or Kesuvim, yet these kids who are learning 12, 13, 14 hours a day don't know the stories of Shlomo, David, Hoshea, Yoav, etc. it's insane. Lehavdil, It's like trying to hit Roger Clemens if you've never picked up a bat.

Finally: Brinana: You can only give it away one time, boys or girls. Doesn't matter. I think that was semgirl
s pojnt. Once you decide to throw away your virginity, it's gone, though I guess a guy can pretend better.

Oh and looks issue: The truthg is, it cannot be generalized. Fopr every guy who only cares about looks theres another who cares about looks, middos, brains, etc. Everyone is different. Not everyone thinks you have to be a size 2 to be beautiful. i see plenty of really thn, good looking guys who have slightly heavy wives (even before they have 10 kids) and they are perfectly happy.

WHEW.

8/07/2005 10:03 PM  
Blogger turquoiseblue said...

Elster - regarding #1 - though I agree with only part of what you write - remember - these issues go beyond the chareidi sector (I started responding to it in detail - but backspaced all the way as got too long-winded :)

So responding to the part of your comment about chareidim judging other fellow Jews...

Though there are some/many in the ultra-orthodox world that might look down on YU's style of Judaism -- but those same ones look down on "their own" too in a similar way - the ones that do not follow their "chumras" etc... so that's not saying too much. They are simply misguided souls... Read Elisheva's blog - she just wrote a post about some leading a "frummer" life because they simply believe that it is the more ideal way of Judaism and they will get more schar in olam haba for that - but DO NOT - DO NOT NOT - look down at others for not following their hashkafa/chumras etc. THAT IS THE IDEAL WAY. Anyone walking around with a "clipboard in hand, comparing/measuring" other's level of frumkeit and if "they are REAL/better/worse jews or not" are simply that - misguided souls. I'm afraid - when they get to shamayim they'll be very shocked/disappointed when they realize that all the points they gained - with hard work and giving up so much - were lost and then some - by the way they misjudged/looked down/lashon hara lack of ahavas yisroel etc. instead of keeping the focus on themselves.

That is something that irks me to no end.

But there's a flip side to it too - the YU/any non-chariedi types (or rather any us/they factions) that do the same - the other way around.

I wish we all "normal jews" - people like you and me - can get our heads together and figure out a way to "beam" it to the rest of us Jews "live and let live" or "Grow, but let live" - or any variation thereof - just "PEACE".

8/08/2005 3:36 AM  
Blogger Elster said...

Turq:

I don't disagree with you. I would venture to say that the MO/Charedi dislike for one another is a 50/50 split. Personaly, I am a big believer in live and let live.

Yes, the closer you live to a torah life, the more schar you will receive. Yes, people should not be walking around judging others when they have disorder in theior own lives. In fact, I don't thnk you and I disagree at all.

8/08/2005 9:39 AM  
Blogger Halfnutcase said...

there is so much knowlageable disscussion on this.. wish i had something to add. but the thoughts here are absolutely beautifull, and very insightfull.

8/08/2005 10:20 AM  
Blogger ClooJew said...

Elster and Turq,

It's important, lulei demistafina, that we recognize there is a whole slew of Jews (most of us included!) who are somewhere between the stereotypical MO/YU person and the stereotypical UO/Chareidi person. I believe that these blogs are most valuable to that mass of people--tolerant, thoughtful, polite (sometimes!), able to convince and be convinced of other opinins. For all we know the majority of Jews may even fall into this category.

My other comment is this: Show of hands--how many people who have criticized the chinuch system are actually in (or plan to be in) chinuch?

The system tends to perpetuate itself because it's the people who believe in it that join it. There are precious few (although there are some!) reformers out there.

8/08/2005 2:02 PM  
Blogger Elster said...

Cloo:

The educational system is messed up, whether we are a part of it or not. Tuition is skyrocketing and for what? These kids are walking out of HS with poor to average educations at Ivy League prices. Thuis goes for lemudei hakodesh as well as english studies (See my previous post re: poor background).

8/08/2005 2:34 PM  
Blogger Halfnutcase said...

i'm planning to be in chinnuch! :-) otherwise i wouldn't be so upset about it. i hope to do some work for special needs kids in particular. both hebrew and secular studies.

8/08/2005 4:39 PM  
Blogger turquoiseblue said...

Was to some degree involved in chinuch. Very frustrating experience. The system was way to rigid for any bit of tweaking. Still hope to some day be in chinuch - in some capacity.

Actually, as I went thru each stage of life, and/or encountered different "issues" - I thought to myself "Here's where I can get involved and make a huge difference".

Right now, I sort of make it my business to "mentor" any engaged to be married - family/friends acquaintances re: (now don't laugh at my romanticism) the potentially greatest gift from Hashem to mankind - a great marriage (I shudder to think of navigating this sometimes scary, always perplexing world of ours alone) - and that it takes work and an attitude of "I'm not perfect. So since I want her/him to accept me the way I am, I gotta accept his/her quirks too." And knowing the basic differences between a man's general style and woman's general style - can sometimes save alot of heartache... etc.

And of course - am raising a family of my own - which makes me VERY INVOLVED IN CHINUCH.

Wish I had a mentor to turn to for my Chinuch/parenting issues :)

8/08/2005 6:45 PM  
Blogger anonymous said...

"The definitions of beauty and attraction are more shallow and rigid in the yeshivishe world than it is elsewhere."

this is completely untrue. they are somewhat different than in the secular world, but much more flexible than you say, and much more about sex appeal than in the secular world!
what do you really know about the yeshiva world anyway HT. you know the chassidische world.

8/08/2005 6:55 PM  
Blogger turquoiseblue said...

um, I think attraction and "what counts" is such an individiual thing.

As we all know - beauty is always "in the eyes of the beholder" or better put "in the HEART of the beholder". Chassidish, yeshivish, mo, yu, secular or otherwise.

8/08/2005 7:17 PM  
Blogger Hoezentragerin said...

"what do you really know about the yeshiva world anyway HT. you know the chassidische world."

That fact that I am chasidish, doesn't exactly imply that I live in a hermetically sealed box, Anon.

I know more about certain aspects of the yeshivishe world than I really care to know.

8/08/2005 7:18 PM  
Blogger Hoezentragerin said...

beauty is always "in the eyes of the beholder"

Except in many cases, beauty is in the eyes of your friends.

8/08/2005 7:27 PM  
Blogger ClooJew said...

Hey Anon,

If you are going to be critical of Hoezen, at least have the guts and respect to post a name of somekind. Anonymous attacks are just underhanded.

8/08/2005 9:23 PM  
Blogger ClooJew said...

halfnut,

I think that's great. The chinuch system could use some nuts!

Turq,

You are on the money. Homestyle chinuch is critical.

8/08/2005 9:24 PM  
Blogger Semgirl said...

CJ .. absolutely. I really resent cowards who throw a rock and run away .. Have the guts to leave an email add or at least a s-name..

HT well obviously looks are in the eyes of your friends. You need someone radiantly gorgeous to strut down Forest ave on a Fri nite., and you dont want to be humiliated. Its a self-esteem thing..

8/08/2005 10:48 PM  
Blogger ClooJew said...

Semgirl,

It's, lulei demistafina, more than that.

Most frum guys are not malachim but also not adulterers. They realize that this is, hopefully, the one and only person they will ever sleep with--and it's important that they have a lot of attraction to her, and that when confronted by the temptations of the world, they can comfort themselves with what they have at home.

It's a fair equation.

8/09/2005 2:15 PM  
Blogger ClooJew said...

Hey Sem,

Not to criticize, but howzabout a new post, lulei demistafina.

8/09/2005 2:16 PM  
Blogger fsgsf said...

Hey! ClooJew some people like to give a space between posts. It is their perogative!!

8/09/2005 3:56 PM  
Blogger Halfnutcase said...

tis true, but i think this one is kinda commented out.

8/09/2005 4:40 PM  
Blogger Josh said...

HNC - Hope you don't mind if I add one more comment. I think there's always more to talk about.

SG, you said, "HT well obviously looks are in the eyes of your friends.[].. Its a self-esteem thing.. " I think you're totally right, in that what you're saying is very true for many people.

But I think it's unfortunate, in many ways. People should be looking for their bashert, not everybody else's. The person you marry needs to make you feel whole, in a real sense, not in other people's eyes. Marriage shouldn't be about self-esteem. Before somebody starts dating, they need to feel comfortable about who they are. And then they will really find somebody who will respect them.

Unfortunately, too many people don't take this fundamental step. They don't respect themselves, and this opens them up to a relationship based on a sham. I don't want to leap too many steps, but a lot of promiscuous behavior - before and during marriage - is the result of low self esteem. And I would say that even regular lack of tznius, at any age in the frum community, is also meant as a quick way to build "popularity." There's no quicker way to build up your self-image than to grab a guy's attention. But is that real? It certainly isn't the way of Torah.

I guess self esteem really deserves it's own thread.

8/09/2005 10:41 PM  
Blogger Elisheva said...

SemGirl, you just do great posts and the comments are still coming!

About the guys parading their wives Fri night (or anytime). ClooJew, are you saying they need it to keep their marriage stable?

Like what about everyone else's marriage? I mean we horny ppl might flirt and parade around, but once i find a guy I like, I will parade my stuff for him in private. I have more self-esteem than to need the whole world knowing what I am for my husband, and it's wrong to need everyone else's approval for whom you married.

Shalom

8/10/2005 9:14 AM  
Blogger Halfnutcase said...

josh- well mabye i was wrong

elisheva-
well, all people have a whole ton of good qualities other than their looks, (and i think all people are pretty as long as they accept their bodies for what they are instead of wishing they where something else and dress in a way that enhances said natural beauty)and that at least for my teachers, they felt that tznius is a way of declaring to the world that "I'M A PERSON!" and encouraging the boys to look at you as a person and not as a "piece of meat" when you dress tzius you are emphesising beauty instead of the "other" things, and you end up encouraging both them, and most of all your self to express your self as a person and not just relly on a "competitive edge" for finding a shidduch. it speaks loads about who you are and most importantly it will make you feel better about your self...

sorry kinda incoherent, and i have a post about it on my blog that is better than this... anyway not saying that the boys wont focus on the "other" aspect instead of a girls character and the like, but really those boys aren't worth their own salt, let alone yours.

8/10/2005 9:25 AM  
Blogger ClooJew said...

I said: "It's important that they have a lot of attraction to her [their wives], and that when confronted by the temptations of the world, they can comfort themselves with what they have at home."

Elisheva said: "About the guys parading their wives Fri night (or anytime). ClooJew, are you saying they need it to keep their marriage stable?"

To which I say: "Huh? What in my comment gave you that idea?"

8/10/2005 3:23 PM  
Blogger Elisheva said...

Halfnutcase- I guess it was as incoherent as you said (lol!) because I am not sure you you are telling me.

CJ - You didn't say it straight out, but the comment before Semgirl said something about guys parading their wives and right after that was your comment, so I was confused. I think I asked about what you said as a question. Guess I mixed up who was commenting on what, lol.

Shalom

8/10/2005 6:38 PM  
Blogger Halfnutcase said...

sorry 'bout that. it was not much more than an incoherent thing on tznius, i had a better version of it on my own blog.

i just have a pet peeve about girls who are pretty much selling them selves out; thinking that their beshert will like them better just because they are dressed more provocatively. actualy he might like you even less if you are dressed provocatively if tznius is important to you.

i know i think like that. (not to say someone who just can't find tznius clothes)

that better elisheva?

8/10/2005 7:41 PM  
Blogger Elisheva said...

ALot better, thanx! And I'll try to check it on your blog.

But do i come across like i dress to sell myself? Because I so don't. I dress nicely (I try), and I ams orry if a guy can't help to look. I don't dress shabby ir in shmattes. But I don't generally flaunt to a guy unles I am interested in him, and even then, I am not hefker. No he will have to marry me to get to know everything. (At least I will try to control my hormones to wait for that)

If you were just saying something, you are right. I totally agree. I really hope I am not in that category though. I'll think about it.

8/10/2005 8:31 PM  
Blogger Josh said...

Of course, nobody here even touched on the concepts of Tznius for men. That is something ignored in the educational system. Ultimately, tznius isn't about lengths you can measure with a ruler. It's a concept that an individual needs to think deeply about, and determine what is truly modest. As Elisheva alluded to, tznius doesn't mean wearing potato sacks. Without getting into too much Mussar, we also have to be concious of our roles as Jews, and what we represent. I think if people remember that the concept of tznius actually relates to the Man-Gd relationship, and not to the Man-Woman relationship, the entire concept becomes easier to grasp.

8/11/2005 12:02 AM  
Blogger Di Polnishe Maidele said...

SemGirl,
very interesting post. In non-jewish world, in a secular world happens the same. However according to the psychologist theory the looks counts first for the person you meet (shidduch, date or whatever) but the turning point is a talk then. It determines the future attitude of your co-chatter toward you. After that look doesnt count that much.

8/11/2005 1:38 PM  
Blogger Mrs. Tantrum said...

I completly agree with #3! You go girl, that's what we need to hear!

8/12/2005 2:54 AM  
Blogger Jew Speak said...

Semgirl,

I totally relate to your response to number 5. "...she possessed more core Jewish values, Chesed, and Yiras Shomayim, in her lil finger than anyone I know who is alive today." My Grandma was the most amazing Jew! I just don't see that type of unconditional love for people. The genuine concern for the wellfare of others is rare to come by today. What was it about the old school Jews? What will be for the future generation? Hopefully they will be able to look back at us and say something similar. G-d willing there will be enough time for us to develop into those types of people.

8/12/2005 4:08 AM  
Blogger As always... Rachael said...

72 comments... that must be some sort of record. My grandmother is my biggest inspiration, also. Times were simpler and people seemed more pure. I guess pop culture wasn't as prevalent then. When people did experience pain, it was for a damned good reason... and it didn't make whiners of them, it just made them tougher and more convicted. Inspiring!

You can interview me if you want... and I'll respond is the questions are good - no pressure! Lol - wouldn't it be nice if everyone found me as funny as I think I am! lol!!

8/14/2005 12:05 AM  
Blogger Halfnutcase said...

i've known several such people who where the kind to posses such traits with out what we today would consider "chashiv"

8/14/2005 3:42 PM  
Blogger Edith Metzger said...

I'm saddened by the fact that you feel that basically all of your body would benefit from plastic surgery. Hashem blessed us with bodies that function in miraculous ways, and that in and of itself is beautiful, in my opinion. However, I can understand feeling inadequate and no good, especially in a frum community.

8/14/2005 10:07 PM  
Blogger ClooJew said...

With the disengagement today, there is a possibility, Rachmana litzlan, of Jews shooting at other Jews.

I think it's important that everyone, regardless of your position, take a moment today and over the next few days to say one chapter of Psalms to beg the Good L-rd not to allow any bloodshed.

8/15/2005 12:31 PM  
Blogger hornymalejew said...

Sem girl- interview me please

8/16/2005 3:51 PM  
Blogger Semgirl said...

HMJ thats a lil hard (no pun intended) considering you dont have a blog..

8/16/2005 9:35 PM  
Blogger hornymalejew said...

ok inteview me (make the questions as racy as posisble)jk the blog is up

8/16/2005 10:33 PM  
Blogger madethisjustopost said...

thank you so much for averring impressions i have received of the general charedi community (israel and insular american). baruch shekivanti. i grew up modern orthodox but went to bais yaakov, went through a brainwashed/yeshivish stage (or so i thought at the time) until i inevitably started to think. today i live on the border between charedi and non, longing to fit in with everyone and have only one community in am yisrael. i learn gemara (conscious decision after high school) and don't believe in dressing for shabbos every day, so that pasuls me as charedi, while i still maintain several defined "charedi" practices (among them level of tzanua dress) and cannot see a future in any dati-leumi community, save for the problem of "what do smart charedi girls do with themselves?!?!"
i spend the occasional shabbos in lakewood, and while i enjoy it very much (and for the record, ppl there are much more "normal" than given credit for), i feel that they think they have a monopoly on "ruchnius" and feel that it can only be attained in their terrarium, and no one who maintains simultaneous existence with the outside world can be on high enough a level. this poses a quandary of where to raise an eventual family, iy"H, and where to send daughters to school (i'm all for cheder/talmud torah for boys. boys always have what to learn, and are encouraged to do so). in israel. it's also tough for myself and similar-minded friends to find guys who are properly halachically and hashkafically frum, while supporting our desire to learn torah and not being intimidated by it.
thank you for making a reference to an issue that i was sure existed. hatzlacha to you in all your endeavors.

10/16/2005 2:09 AM  
Blogger Cap Smith said...

Like all today - you would get it all off if you could without anybody knowing!!!

12/12/2005 2:38 AM  
Blogger The Negotiator™ said...

Interview me please....

*Runs away and hides*

2/23/2006 6:51 PM  

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