Shidduch Pressure
I was drawing a blank on what to write about. But lately, I am receiving a lot of email about pressure and Shidduchim, not to mention my own current situation, so it got me thinking. The Girl's latest post clinched it.
It seems that whatever I do lately is my fault, according to my parents. Either I don’t dress ‘eidl’ , or too frumpy, too plain-looking, too flashy, etc.. My father is always telling me I have no Shidduchim, because, I am too lackadaisical and lazy about it. Yet, whenever I express a lot of interest, other people in the community perceive me as being over-aggressive or nebby . I am really not sure what to do anymore.
A friend of mine emailed me, that her father is pressuring her a lot to get married. However, whenever a name is suggested , the mother procrastinates until the boy moves on, and the father feels too awkward to take any action.
Another friend, waits a long time before a date is set up, and then is very indecisive. But, she desperately wants to get married with every fiber of her being.
Unfortunately, I have witnessed some very good girls crack under the intense pressure of Shidduchim. Recently, a close friend of my parents married their daughter off at the ripe old age of 21. Now, she is getting divorced, because they discovered that the boy is bi-polar, and prone to erratic mood swings. They tried for months to make it work. But, when he threw her into a wall in a fit of rage and threatened to hit her with a broom, that was the last straw.
Another girl, I knew was the last one in her class at Tomar Devora to get married at 18, an Alter Fro (old lady). She was very relieved to be out of the vice-grip, until he was raping and beating her. It took 3 years to obtain a Get, and her life was threatened several times.
The point of this post is not to tell horror stories (although it is Lhavdil, that day) . But rather, to realize that stress inflicted by well-meaning parents, and the extreme-pressure of a system that has gone insane, can and does traumatize girls, that results in depression and nervous breakdowns, or Chas-V-Shalom bad decisions you will regret for the rest of your life..
It seems that whatever I do lately is my fault, according to my parents. Either I don’t dress ‘eidl’ , or too frumpy, too plain-looking, too flashy, etc.. My father is always telling me I have no Shidduchim, because, I am too lackadaisical and lazy about it. Yet, whenever I express a lot of interest, other people in the community perceive me as being over-aggressive or nebby . I am really not sure what to do anymore.
A friend of mine emailed me, that her father is pressuring her a lot to get married. However, whenever a name is suggested , the mother procrastinates until the boy moves on, and the father feels too awkward to take any action.
Another friend, waits a long time before a date is set up, and then is very indecisive. But, she desperately wants to get married with every fiber of her being.
Unfortunately, I have witnessed some very good girls crack under the intense pressure of Shidduchim. Recently, a close friend of my parents married their daughter off at the ripe old age of 21. Now, she is getting divorced, because they discovered that the boy is bi-polar, and prone to erratic mood swings. They tried for months to make it work. But, when he threw her into a wall in a fit of rage and threatened to hit her with a broom, that was the last straw.
Another girl, I knew was the last one in her class at Tomar Devora to get married at 18, an Alter Fro (old lady). She was very relieved to be out of the vice-grip, until he was raping and beating her. It took 3 years to obtain a Get, and her life was threatened several times.
The point of this post is not to tell horror stories (although it is Lhavdil, that day) . But rather, to realize that stress inflicted by well-meaning parents, and the extreme-pressure of a system that has gone insane, can and does traumatize girls, that results in depression and nervous breakdowns, or Chas-V-Shalom bad decisions you will regret for the rest of your life..
posted by SemGirl | Monday, October 31, 2005
45 Comments:
i think people really have forgoten, in their quest to out do every one else, about the realities of marrying someone off, and for better or for worse, they're forgetting that g-d makes his matches when and how he wants to. not to mention that this whole additude about secrecy in shidduchim is really undermining the system
to illustrate with a midrash:
there was once a wealthy roman matron who asked a rabbi what g-d spent his day doing, and the woman said: "making matches? that is not so difficult! i'll pair up all of my male and female slaves tonight and then to i will be like g-d!" so she went home and did so, and it was a day later that bedlam broke out and this wife was beating her husband with a pan, and this husband hit his wife with a club, and all the matches where failing misserably. she then went to the rabbi and conceeded that making matches was indeed a task for g-d.
the think i find scary is that the shadchanim and perents are acting like this very woman who, despite what where probably very good efforts (i dont think that she was truely stupid enough to think she could just pair them up!) she paired essentialy, hundreds of thuroughly innapropriate people together in her appearant haughtiness to make the matches.
i think that somehow the people doing this need to learn a bit of paitence and humility and stop dictating to g-d how to make his matches.
i have some other worthless points about the secrecy in shidduchim if anyone is interested. sorry for the rant in you're comments section.
Wait a minute...
So the chasidish way of (non)dating aint so bad after all??? com on give me a break, enjoy the hunt!!!!
HNC
No need to apologize, vent all you want. Hope you are feeling better then you were last week on your blog.
semgirl, one point about the mentioning the bi-polar husband is that, the problem there is not the pressure to get married, the problem in a thoroughly unhealthy additude about the mentaly ill so prevelant in the jewish world. i think that,
1 we need to be more upfront about these issues.
2 we need to be looking for the benifite of the children not for the perents
3 we very badly need to learn about what is best for these kinds of people and be honest about it.
these people deserve suitable matches also, but only if they are willing to commit wholy to their spouses and to fighting that desiese. which means they have to be doing what the doctor says. personaly my suggestion would be to pair them up with a girl who has a friend with a similar problem so she knows how to deal with it. (and longer engagements in case the other partner assessed it wrong
semgirl
i was in the same situation as every shidduch that didnt happen my parents told me its my fault
but i clearly uncovered their BS finger pointing, by showing them how many shidduchem they threw awaw for big time nonsense.
This shidduch system is in dire need of repair. It sucks. I mean it. I hate it. The only good thing abuot it is that the Shadchan dumps the guy for you.
As for the people being bi-polar and such, it is so true and scary how many of these things are around nowadays. I had an experience that demonstrates this frightening phenomenon of marrying almost a complete stranger. One of the many things I got from that, including always having mental-illness awareness in the back of my mind, is at the risk of sounding like a Yenta, get as much info as you can. That's not a guarantee, but once in a while you'll come across someone honest who will tell you about this person's tendencies.
There was a girl in my class in HS who had a nervous breakdown in front of the whole school. When she got engaged, and I heard from someone who knows her and knows the Chosson well, that he has no idea about the nervous breakdown, I got nervous. But here she is married, and seemingly normal. Which makes me wonder, how can someone like her be married, and so many sane, good, smart, etc. people still be single well into their 20s and 30s?
I know everything happens for a reason, and that everything comes in the right time, but sometimes it's a lot harder to accept.
i'm just guessing that majority is that certain types of people have no right to any shidduch due to external labels, regardless of how they are currently doing? thats what this seems to be pointing to.
one question: what would be said of someone who came out and told you he/she was bi-polar or schitzophrenic? but adding that it isn't severe, would you believe them, or drop it on the spot?
HNC
That is precisely what happened in the case mentioned. While dating, he treated her like a queen. A few months after marriage suddenly his condition took a turn for the worse and he became very violent.
I would say ABSOLUTELY dont trust Shadchanim or Rabbis involved with the family. If you have no other options, or you are totally in love with him/her insist on a note from a very competent therapist, preferably someone outside the community who can be objective.
I think we all know the shidduch "system" - just a bunch of yentas pulling names out the phone book and a very superficial society. I have found there is very little point of 'fnding out information' as people always only tell you the good things and conveniently don't know about anything else. Best thing to do is find someone who knows the two of you/family, who will see if its suitable.
People do change; so often a breakdown years beforehand (or any info from 'old' sources) often wont mean a thing or have any relavance to the current person.
go out with them long enough to get to know them properly - if they are right for you after two months they will be right after sixm, but at least u will have discovered much more about them
if they still haven't given the get yet, then this site may be helpfull
http://www.webmd.com/medical_information/condition_centers/bipolar_disorder/default.htm?z=3074_00000_1053_00_06
if you have questions i can answer some, i have, R"L, personal expiriance in this area, so feel free to ask. i, many appologies feel a need to point this out if it might save an otherwise good match. if it doesn't help here mabye it will help someone else.
Getting married isn't easy...on anybody...in any system. It takes lots of emotional investment, and, surprise, time. The two most important things to a sane, successful hunt are: 1) Give people a chance, and 2) Give yourself a break. Take the time to be yourself and to let those you date reveal themselves.
Gosh! Shidduchim! Like you can write for months and not cover anything of this topic!
Semgirl you touched on so much and like all the comments are sad and true and like maybe helpful in pointing out the major problems with the system. But like all this won't help. Somehow we have to stop talking and do things differently.
I know this sounds good but like so isn't happening. I just wish there was a clear direction and I think so many people, like us here, would be glad to do stuff differently.
Shalom
Well said Semgirl!
Insane is the exact word.
I'm horrified by these stories, unfortunate much less shocked than I would’ve been a year ago.
I think online dating is giving boys and girls new avenue to work on Shidduchims without their parent's meddling and pressure.
Btw does anybody have a Shidduch for my wife's friend? She’s 19 and her parents are DESPERATE!!
The pressure to marry young is enormous, but there is a reason for it: it is much more difficult to find someone once you reach your mid-20s to 30s - you are much more set in your ways and have already started on your life path - without someone else in it! If you marry at 18-19, you are growing into who you will become with your spouse. That said, much better to take the time to get to know someone and marry the right person than to jump into a marriage at 19 so as not to be an "old maid" at 22.
There is only so much checking a person can do beforehand. Time spent with each other in different situations over a period of time will give you a better sense of each other than any phone calls to rebbeim and rebbetzins will.
But if you do make those calls, it's important to ask the right questions. I have learned the hard way that you can often get a very different (and more accurate) answer if you ask point blank "are they emotionally stable"? rather than a generic "are they healthy with good middot?"...
Wow. That's way longer than I intended...
I think the roots of many of these issues of our community result from the clash of the Hasidic/European template of shiduch/love/marriage with American society in 2005's template, as influenced by Hollywood, the media, etc.
1) The Hasidic approach says you can meet a guy/girl once, see them next by your wedding, and live a long and happy life. The parents will generally do research to check out the yichus and how much dough the potential michutunnim have, but the kids mostly go along with whoever they get set up with. The family reputation is a HUGE factor here, possibly the ONLY factor.
On the wedding day, do the guy and girl love each other? heck, they're lucky if they even KNOW each other! But for the most part (and I'm sure that community has its share of horror stories, too), the system works. Many people fall in love after the wedding, and live happy and content lives together.
2) But in the secular world 2005, if you don't love the guy/girl when you walk down the aisle, you're nuts! In all the movies, we see "love at first sight," or at least the extended development of a very long-term relationship between a single guy and girl. And of course, in the secular world these days, there's all sorts of physical contact (and beyond) before marriage.
And what the parents think, or who the machatonim are, that's just not a huge deal.
---- I'm not here to say which system is more kosher or practically better. But I will say that our community is screwed up because it's torn and confused between the two visions. There's an inordinate focus on family reputation. We have people seeing each other sporadically for maybe 2-3 months and then getting engaged. Has the guy seen the girl in all her moods, or just all perked up on a date? Does the girl really know what the guy's all about? Or is the most inportant thing that the parents are happy with their machatonim?
And do they really love each other, at that point? Sometimes, I'm sure they do. But oftentimes not. And can such people, in today's world, really wait till after the marriage to love one another? No way.
Our community has to recognize the fact that times have changed and that old approaches and their influences are passe, and as we've seen, sometimes dangerous. For example, if it means going out for longer before committing, and getting to really know and love someone before one commits, so be it. And if it means the parents not freaking out and saying "what do the neighbors think," so be it. Etc. Etc. Etc.
Wow, that was a long one. Sorry.
Elisheva .. WELCOME BACK.. I was starting to get worried about you.
Hope all is well with you..
Consider this a virtual hug...
HNC also welcomes elisheva back.
incidently i think the shidduch system would work a lot better if the two people who are making the shidduch (one representing each) know the couple extreemly well, and they discuss all the issues BEFORE they suggest the shidduch instead of suggesting it on a whim.
appearantly the statistic is that the people who married and stayed married for a long time had dated less than twelve people
thats an increadible testiment to just how much hand in it g-d has. and its also a word to the wise, if you have rejected more than 12 reasonable shidduchim, you are probably too picky (and by reasonable i dont mean people you would not date if you didn't have to in retrospect)
Me: on the other hand I have stuff in my closet for years that just doesn't fit or go well with anything.
Yet, I can go to Macys or Filenes, or occasionally Nordstroms and something catches my eye and it just feels right.
Take my parents for example. My mother was set up with a number of guys by her best friend who knew her intimately, and her family knew the boy for years and nothing came of it. Then some Rebbe in a yeshiva told my father, just call this girl out of the blue. All he did was look thru a pile of index cards and see who he didn't get a date for in a very long time and felt bad for.Long story short, 22 years later they are very happy.
While everyone is criticizing the Shidduch system and highlighting all the horror stories, stop for a second and answer, lulei demistafina, the following questions:
1) Do you believe that the secular "system" of dating--bars, parties, etc.--is a successful way for people to meet "naturally"?
2) Do you have many secular friends, Jews or Gentiles, who are trying to get married (as opposed to simply having fun) and claim that dating is a fun and enjoyable process? Do you believe they have fewer horror stories than you do?
3) Do you believe that the horror stories outweigh the positive ones? Do you believe that the shidduch "system" has created more unhappy marriages than happy ones?
4) Do you believe that secular people who date for several years before getting married have, on the whole, better marriages and fewer divorces?
5) Do you accept at face value somebody's claim that an ex-spouse or ex-fiance was "mentally disturbed" without having met the person in question? Do you believe you have the wisdom and/or training to know when someone is "mentally disturbed"?
6) Do you believe that being bipolar is more prevalent or less prevalent than having cancer? Do you believe that being bipolar is more shameful or less shameful than having cancer?
Cloo... since you asked me what I thought and I think SemGirl did a great job in her post, I will respond to your questions:
1. I do not believe the secular way of meeting people is more natural. I think the best way to meet people is through mutual friends who know both parties well.
2. I don't believe anyone in the secular world thinks serious dating is a fun time. It's a difficult thing and there are lots of expectations that lead to disillusionment.
3. The horror stories are different of course. They cannot be compared.... As for shidduch system... WHAT system is that? It's a joke!
4. Those who date for years and even live together before marriage have no guarrantee at all... in fact I believe a study shows that those living together first have a HIGHER rate of divorce....
5.&6. There is a stigma in our society where if any mental illness is mentioned that person is treated like a pariah. It is just a fact. Yes it is considered shameful... there is nothing shameful about cancer....
NADB:
As her father you dont mind that they stare. My father isnt so easygoing.
Dont kid yourself the "less" frum circles are just as much into material things, if not more so.
Be proud of her, for not wanting to go to Coed events. You dont have to only wait for the Shadchan's phone to ring. You and your wife should also actively and aggressively be networking with friends, neighbors, relatives, ppl at shul, etc..
Even www.futuresimchas.com, is a better alternative, to singles events where my very limited experience has been that there are just a lot boys (and I mean literally boys, as opposed to mature men), that are just looking to act very inappropriately, and be very disrespectul to the girls.
Frumgirl,
I put "system" in quotes because I don't beleive that the shidduch system is, lulei demistafina, a system.
There are lots of scary stories, however there are two sides to e/ coin .. and shidduchim work out well for a lot of pp. Personally, I dont think it would work for me, cuz i want to know as much as i can about the person bfore i decide to spend the rest of my life with them; and i dnt think that aspect is 'covered' in the shidduch system. A lot of wat pp find out is heresay which can lead to the bipolar issue etc. But in necase, g'luck with the search... right prson, right x. -lost
Oh and re the whole "Nervous Breakdown" thing, I would have to agree with Elster. I honestly don't think that any of us are qualified to recognize a Nervous breakdown. A girl had one of these breakdowns in front of her whole school...basically the whole school she was nuts, turns out it was a panic attack. due to anxiety. but of course, girls made it out to be a nervous breakdown.
These girls who have panic, anxiety, nervous breakdowns.. WTVR, can be just as normal as a/o else. And a lot of times, these girls who seem to be "normal", sane individuals, are more screwed up than the former. Never judge when it comes to these things. You know waaay less than youd like to think. If youre a mental health professional, its a diff story.
dads are mad i know ive been one for donkeys years .Just distract him by pointing the other way and by the time hes turned aroun he will have forgot what he was talking about.goodluck with this.
I'm with Elster (and probably the rest of the group too)- it all comes down to moderation (*gasp*). It's good to do someresearch, it's good to have someparental involvement, it's good to have somepickiness.
NABJ - Parents have a strong role in Shidduchim. I consider them "Chief Officer of Not Messing Anything Up." That is all. A Shidduch is not a marionette. You've spent 20 years training your child, let them make their own decisions and let yourself play a supporting role.
At the same time, dropping everything and running the opposite direction doesn't help anything. Take the "System" as it works for you. Think you need to date more than 2 months - go for it. Think his Hashkafa might be different - ask him about it. The point of the "System" is not to make matches before two people ever meet. All you need is enough information to make sure you're playing the same game- and then decide if you'd be good teammates.
Our father avraham was searching a shidduch for his son yitzchok he sent his slave to find a nice girl and he indeed found and brought rivka then it says in the verse there “and yitzchok married her and then he loved her”
So we see that the heimishe shadchan shidduch system can work fine as we see that there is no problem having a successful marriage if you marry a stranger and then you get to know each other and then you fall in love there is nothing wrong falling in love after marriage what is gained if you fall in love before marriage? One thing you got to lose is that the dating system that you fall in love and you propose out of that love what happens is that the marriage came to be only because of that love if the love should disappear then the marriage is over but the heimishe shidduch system where you married not out of love the marriage could still stay valid even though love is gone for a short time as it can always come back
(Im not here to advocate one way or another I just wanted to make some points)
What's your suggestion Semgirl?
r.x -
practically speaking...the men in our community tend to get married young, therefore, if a girl wants the "best selection", she needs to get married young as well. if she waits until she's 22, 23, 24 (which i really think is a better age, given that you're old enough to have traveled, worked a bit,had some exposure to the world before settling down) - often the guys in the right age range are already married and there's less of a choice. that's just the reality.
Semgirl, I agree with you that the shidduch scene is not easy! Mishpacha magazine and horizons printed some good articles on the subject. Although our system may not be perfect it sure is doing better than the secular system. They are suffering a close to 60% divorce rate. Not to mention
35.7% of all births in the country are out of wedlock! I can testify to this because my High School campus had a nursery school on campus!
For us frum dating Jews I think the more settled we are as individuals the easier it will be for us to get married. Like if we are really clear on who we are and what we want it will be easier to find the one.
I wish you hatzlach in finding your husband soon!
sometimes things "feel" right before they "are" right. we're actualy learning about that kind of intuitive thinking now.
i can't help but wonder if arranged marraiges work better simply because the adolescent can only consider someone who has allready been filtered through at all levels, hence if it feels right, it's ok because those practicalities the adolescent is just not thinking of (most kids getting married aren't thinking much at all) has hopefully allready been thought of.
(not saying that people are thinking enough about them but anyways)
Thank you for honestly your views. As a mother of a 22 year old son, and a 20 year old daughter, it is good to hear the 'other side.'
Thank you as well for your kind wishes and thoughts about my daughter. This has been a painful and difficulttime for our family.
Goodness I feel lucky. I didn't realize what a nightmare this was (scared for my kids). I married the first girl I dated.
I think that often the parents - yes, because they are nervous and scared and want the best for their kids - want more control. When I got engaged (after dating for exactly 4 weeks 6000 miles away from my parents), my parents tried to convince me that my then fiance wasn't what I had wanted. It simply wasn't true. I looked at my "list" and he met all the criteria. And I just knew it instinctively - I hadn't consulted the list once during those four weeks. But that was just a tangent because I like to share.
In short, we were set up by close friends who know both of us well, we didn't do a lot of checking out (if any; most of it was just for my parents to feel more confident), we didn't date for long, we shared everything we could think of, and we're reasonably happy most of the time. Love can be there when you marry, but whether it is or not, in a successful marriage, it grows with time.
Ah, parents. Mine know their role (in my dating life). If somebody comes up to them and offers them a shidduch on my behalf, they know that I won't entertain it- unless the shadchan comes straight to me.
When the time comes, I'm sure I'll ask my parents for some advice. But the ball will be in my court.
Hang in there, Semgirl! Dress as you are comfortable - wear becoming colors and styles, make sure your hair looks good, but don't worry about looking like a fashion plate. I don't think a lot of guys like too much make-up.
My husband and I met through mutual friends, and he knew I was his basherte from the first time we met - after having courted by mail for months. I thought he was full of American BS bravado - having been used to more reserved Europeans. But he was right, I was wrong and baruch HaShem we've been married for coming up on 10 years.
SS: IY"H by me..
Dr: Couldnt agree with you more.
Able: Thanks for your input and words of encouragement.
Elchonon: You are hilarious, though I hope you aren't over 30, and still feel like that..
That is so sad, Red. Iy"h, your odyssey should end soon, and you should meet the man of your dreams, who is hopefully also your Bashert..
so are the rest of us.
Wow Semgirl I did not know it was that bad in many orthodox circles. The one I am in no one is pressured into marriage. THey take the time to find their beshert. I am sorry to hear about your friends. And believe me I have heard of such situation but mostly ones where they were looking for their beshert through Jdate or Frumsters and ended up getting something altogether different.. I believe this is the purpose of the community. TO keep THAT and not gossip from happening. I wish much success in finding your beshert and don't give into the pressure. It is not like your parents would disown you.. Remember that..
T
it happens that way i think because it seems to me mabye they are just not as afraid to lie/missrepresent things
You are 19. You should not be under this kind of pressure from either parents or community. But maybe that's why I'm not a part of that community.
Hi
First of all, I am really glad that you Jewish ladies and gents are having a discussion about people with mental illness and the positive and negative aspects of being married to a person with a mental illness. It is really difficult to find a Shidduch with a Jewish male or female once they know that you have a mental health issue. There is a large stigma attached to this.
But some of us, look and appear completely normal, we take medication, drive cars, make a living, are caring, responsible people. But we are labelled with this. Young people are more open and free-thinking and you should judge the person individually on their own merit. Every person has problems, some people get upset stomachs, some are more sensitive than others, suffering is suffering, it all hurts, of course there is the good too. A person with a mental health issue, if they are being responsible,(if they have come to that stage) than there is a great insight that a mental healthy person can get from being with them. I suggest you find out more and check out on the net what schizophrenia, depression, bipolar, anorexia, bulemia, body-dismorfic disorder, agoraphobia, anxiety disorder, panic attacks, etc. are.
Thank you for having the courage, sensitivity, and honesty to discuss this issue.
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