Crushes and the Like
UPDATE : AnySara Got engaged.... I wish her lots of Nachas and Simcha
I have received many emails lately of a very flirtatious and or inquisitive nature about admirations from a distance for myself or various girls in Lakewood or the community in which the writer of the email lives.
Some of these emails are very sweet and really melt your heart. Others are just clueless, not menacing , but no warmth and feeling either. Then there are those letters of the weird, creepy variety. Even though, its completely anonymous, and I don’t know them, and they don’t know me, it is still very scary.
Recently, I was considering whether to respond to a rather interesting letter. It was written very respectfully. The writer seems nice enough, in a pathetic sort of way. He claims to taken pictures with his cell phone of a girl he is very smitten with, and is very persistently, asking me to divulge personal information about a close friend of mine. So far, I have chosen to ignore him. I am not sure whether, I should admonish him about the picture or not. In the meantime, I will ask for advice in this matter from my many cherished readers, many of whom, are much more knowledgeable and experienced than me.
I usually try to respond to any email that is respectfully written, time permitting. And although, I like to IM with people that I already know, I prefer to avoid anon Cyber-Ims, especially from boys, (who quite often turn out to be married men, lol).
So for expedience sake, I am going to discuss this on the blog for everyone’s benefit.
It’s a perfectly normal, healthy part of adolescence to develop crushes on members of the opposite gender. Unfortunately, in our extremely gender-segregated society , where boys seldom ever mingle with girls, and can be in the Dorm or Beis Medrash (Study Hall), for months at a time. Even more so, in cases, where they have no sisters and their family lives in Europe or Israel, and they can’t go home for Yom Tov (holidays), it is possible to never or see or talk to a girls for years.. This was always problematic. However, the situation has been greatly exacerbated with the advent of internet, chatrooms, and text messaging.
As a result, you now have innocent, naïve girls, and very sheltered boys with no real world training in how to deal with the other gender, connecting with each other clandestinely, thru this new medium. Yet, many have no clue how to communicate respectfully. All the time , I receive three basic types of emails. Some are actually very touching in a Nebby sort of way. I respond to those, basically for the same reason that you feel for a cute, lost puppy that follows you home from school.Another type is very obnoxious and nasty. Get a clue, guys, very few girls are interested in or want anything to do with offensive jerks. Who know, maybe the Yeshivas intentionally encourage this in the bochurim to prevent from being too attractive to girls from the onset of puberty until they are ready to start dating.
Unfortunately, most of the guys I date are still like that. Story of my life, I guess.
Finally, there are very creepy, obscene emails sent by Cyber-stalkers that really give you the chills.
If this blog accomplishes anything, let me at least educate and provide a few pointers. DON’T take pictures of girls with your cellphone without their permission. If I caught someone taking my pic like that, I would kick him where it counts. I strongly advise any other girl to do likewise. And definitely, don’t email these pics to your friends or other girls. That’s very not cool.
Try writing a sweet letter or a poem .If you can’t think of something nice to say, there is a ton of stuff on Google. Or just speak from the heart and open up. Talk about yourself and your feelings That always works with me and most of my friends.
Finally, and most importantly, I am very appalled that I even have had to mention this to nice Frum boys, but, if you just cant control yourself and feel the need to write things like, “Sweetheart , whats your fantasy”, or anything of a more graphic nature, there are like a billion porn-sites and X-rated phone numbers to call.
Have a lil respect and decency and don’t send this filth to a Bas Yisroel.
Addenda: To Josh and others, thought I was clear, guess not. I meant nice , pleasant communication for purposes of Shidduchim, or understanding women for the eventual goal of Shidduchim, not uncontrolled licentiousness..
PS : Please check out my new links in my evergrowing group of Blog-friends
I have received many emails lately of a very flirtatious and or inquisitive nature about admirations from a distance for myself or various girls in Lakewood or the community in which the writer of the email lives.
Some of these emails are very sweet and really melt your heart. Others are just clueless, not menacing , but no warmth and feeling either. Then there are those letters of the weird, creepy variety. Even though, its completely anonymous, and I don’t know them, and they don’t know me, it is still very scary.
Recently, I was considering whether to respond to a rather interesting letter. It was written very respectfully. The writer seems nice enough, in a pathetic sort of way. He claims to taken pictures with his cell phone of a girl he is very smitten with, and is very persistently, asking me to divulge personal information about a close friend of mine. So far, I have chosen to ignore him. I am not sure whether, I should admonish him about the picture or not. In the meantime, I will ask for advice in this matter from my many cherished readers, many of whom, are much more knowledgeable and experienced than me.
I usually try to respond to any email that is respectfully written, time permitting. And although, I like to IM with people that I already know, I prefer to avoid anon Cyber-Ims, especially from boys, (who quite often turn out to be married men, lol).
So for expedience sake, I am going to discuss this on the blog for everyone’s benefit.
It’s a perfectly normal, healthy part of adolescence to develop crushes on members of the opposite gender. Unfortunately, in our extremely gender-segregated society , where boys seldom ever mingle with girls, and can be in the Dorm or Beis Medrash (Study Hall), for months at a time. Even more so, in cases, where they have no sisters and their family lives in Europe or Israel, and they can’t go home for Yom Tov (holidays), it is possible to never or see or talk to a girls for years.. This was always problematic. However, the situation has been greatly exacerbated with the advent of internet, chatrooms, and text messaging.
As a result, you now have innocent, naïve girls, and very sheltered boys with no real world training in how to deal with the other gender, connecting with each other clandestinely, thru this new medium. Yet, many have no clue how to communicate respectfully. All the time , I receive three basic types of emails. Some are actually very touching in a Nebby sort of way. I respond to those, basically for the same reason that you feel for a cute, lost puppy that follows you home from school.Another type is very obnoxious and nasty. Get a clue, guys, very few girls are interested in or want anything to do with offensive jerks. Who know, maybe the Yeshivas intentionally encourage this in the bochurim to prevent from being too attractive to girls from the onset of puberty until they are ready to start dating.
Unfortunately, most of the guys I date are still like that. Story of my life, I guess.
Finally, there are very creepy, obscene emails sent by Cyber-stalkers that really give you the chills.
If this blog accomplishes anything, let me at least educate and provide a few pointers. DON’T take pictures of girls with your cellphone without their permission. If I caught someone taking my pic like that, I would kick him where it counts. I strongly advise any other girl to do likewise. And definitely, don’t email these pics to your friends or other girls. That’s very not cool.
Try writing a sweet letter or a poem .If you can’t think of something nice to say, there is a ton of stuff on Google. Or just speak from the heart and open up. Talk about yourself and your feelings That always works with me and most of my friends.
Finally, and most importantly, I am very appalled that I even have had to mention this to nice Frum boys, but, if you just cant control yourself and feel the need to write things like, “Sweetheart , whats your fantasy”, or anything of a more graphic nature, there are like a billion porn-sites and X-rated phone numbers to call.
Have a lil respect and decency and don’t send this filth to a Bas Yisroel.
Addenda: To Josh and others, thought I was clear, guess not. I meant nice , pleasant communication for purposes of Shidduchim, or understanding women for the eventual goal of Shidduchim, not uncontrolled licentiousness..
PS : Please check out my new links in my evergrowing group of Blog-friends
54 Comments:
SG,
Maybe you should post or quote some examples of the sicker things that people write.
There are plenty of frustrated horny creeps across all sectors society, though being stuck in Yeshiva for months on end sometimes helps and sometimes hinders development.
I don't someone should ever divulge personal information about a friend to someone who is interested. There are plenty of Halachot about that.
Naivety in general is often dangerous and steps should be taken to educate and inform people about the dangers.
TRK
Sorry.. MB what would you like me to write about ?
The truth is that most indeed don't know how to talk to girls, the best pointers they have are the clandestine movie they watch and heaven knows, nobody in real life speaks like those perfect gentlemen in the movies.
10 writers directors and producers are needed to create the text of one romantic scene and they are paid for it. It's not fair to expect a young boy to come up with the same lines.
I agree the creepy letters should be ignored and I find it very generous of you to answer the "nebby" letters in a kind way, I'm sure this improves their self esteem.
Great advice semgirl. Welcome back. I have been looking forward to your next post for a while now.
I remember when the picture phones first came out, my wife was apalled. She immediately feared pictures taken without permission and possibly worse.
There should be a course taught to guys in yeshiva on how to talk to a girl. You can't talk to a girl the way you do to your chavrusa.
nor can you talk with your chevrusa they way you might talk to a girl. took me years to learn that.
but honestly, i knew other boys could be weird but why on earth would married men be trying to pick up young frum girls on the internet?! and why do people send creepy emails like that, and what on earth could make them look at girls as such objects?! and can't they have any respect for their wives?! i knew it was bad but this is just freaky.
Yeah I was about to call that guy a stalker and they give me the willies.. I HATE STALKERS!!
YEs nice letters and poem are great and if a guy is sneaking pics of you G-d only knows what he does with them behind closed doors and that is even more creepy.
In essence stay away from cyber stalkers..and obnoxious nillies!!
Great post semgirl
Semgirl:
Please give an example of a letter that you would find normal. Don't tell me what doesn't work. Tell me what does. You don't have to use an actual letter as an example - just make one up that if you got, would be interested.
Also, what else should a guy do if he's interested in a girl?
I'm not sure, lulei demistafina, what exactly this other person expects from you.
Do you know this person whose picture he took? Is he asking you to set him up with her? Obviously, you can't do that.
So what advice are you asking for? How can a lonely yeshiva guy meet a girl he saw at a pizza shop, when approaching her directly isn't appropriate? Um, not much you can do there!
The only thing he can do is ask someone who knows her to set up the shidduch. End of story.
Gosh! I am late here! And yes, I know I owe you e-mails SG! Coming soon I hope.
As far as the post, as usual you like nailed it in your straight out way without beating around the bush.
Besides the sickos, there are the guys who really like want to chat or I guess just reach out and like somehow communicate with the opposite sex but like that is almost not possible in many parts of frum society. These guys are just clueless about how to do it.
One thing I agree with my mother on (yes, there are a few things...) is that yeshivas should totally teach boys how to just behave like mentchen in the outside world. And on dates too! (That's my addition, not my Moms)
As far as getting ni touch with a girl you are interested in, if there is no way to communicate outright, by all means ask someone to let her know you are interested. If it is real, why shy away, and if it is only lust, there is no reason to take it anywhere.
Shalom
SG,
Do you really believe those so called yeshiva guys emailing you with filthy requests dont know exactly what they are doing? Pushing buttons for a reaction... etc? I kind of agree with elster on this one... (the coal comment).
I agree with you that the real yeshiva boys don't know how to relate to girls but the opposite is also true. Girls have romantic expectations and boys are raised to think of girls of lesser than... and chivalry is a lost science. That is the cold hard truth. Some kind of collision of two worlds is in order... and you wonder why the divorce rate is so high?
It is unfortunate that the internet has become the only way for some to learn how to relate... and with such a mix of people on it... if one gets to know the wrong people, the wrong impressions are made of the opposite gender which is really the most unfortunate.
I was once outraged when someone took not a picture but a VIDEO of me playing with my child with their camera phone! They refused to delete it... talk about an invasion of privacy and space!
My advice... you cant change these people, nor do you want to. Ignore, ignore, ignore!
SG, I'm with you 100% when you say that there are plenty of "frum" sickos out there. I'm with you 100% when you say "frum" guys don't know how to act with women, either casually, or as 7 pointed out, on a date. And I'm with you 100% in recognizing that Yeshivos don't do a wonderful job training guys to be mentchen.
But I absolutely lose you when you resolve that the solution is to train the "nebs" and "creeps" how to better accomplish their goals.
SG, not to belittle you, but these "nebs" and "creeps" aren't deemed so just because of their tactics. Their goals should be recognized as equally disgusting. If the creep managed to piece together something resembling poetry, his aim would still be to get in your pants. All you're advocating is educating him in how to accomplish this without turning you off.
I think many of our communal standards may be extraneous. But there is a fine line between training guys to be eloquent, respectful gentleman and teaching them how to be smooth-talkers.
SG, you still haven't offered a solution other than poetry. What the hell should a guy do?
Sorry, YD
Establish common interests, show that he wants to know all about her life, work, hobbies, goals, dreams. Open up and discuss himself.
Pretty much like you dont meet a guy for the first time at a library or Synagogue, or picnic, etc... and say hi nice to meet you, how much $ do youy make a year..
Maybe her feel comfortable in face to face meetings or cyberspace.
SG - Thanks for the clarification. Strange how guys pick up a totally different vibe when it comes to "stalking." I guess it takes one to know one. (But your first clue that they aren't chatting for Shidduch purposes should be when the 22 year old boy turns out to be a 40 year old married man!)
As for all the legitimate crushes, you are right. There are so few avenues to follow up with people we meet in our daily lives. If your 2nd cousin's plumber doesn't think of the shidduch, there's almost no chance you'll ever get to go out with the person - even though you've seen them at 3 weddings, shop at the same store, and even work in the same office. I think there is nothing wrong in a guy or girl approaching somebody of the opposite sex in a public place and introducing themselves. Obviously, there is a comfort question, but that is something that our community could definitely use advancement in. The second factor is the stigma, that somebody must be a "bum" if they go directly up to somebody of the opposite sex. I'm not suggesting that the two should go off and hang out. But a few introductory pleasantries can go along way. From there, you can usually find friends or neighbors who might know more about this person as a potential shidduch. But the guy (and the girl) definitely need to learn how to come across as normal. Usually, asking, "So how do you know the Chasson/Kallah?" or "Do you come here often?" are safe, albeit lame, ice breakers. The first introduction is the hardest, but after that, just be a mensch, treat her like you would introduce yourself to a new face in Yeshiva (assuming that doesn't involve tackling the Newbie), and your chances of finding out whether there is any possible connection will greatly improve. Now we just have to get rid of the stigma...
Wow. I can hardly relate to the whole Lakewoodish 'crush' scene. ModernOrtho is more 'hands on' ..... Sounds very childish.
guys in yeshiva are no better/worse than guys in the non-jewish world. what i think is much more important is rewarding menchlach behavior and punnishing rude/crude behavior all the time, not just in terms of girls but in everything.
i think the yeshivos unwittingly encourage bad behavior and i think their being estrogen deprived as on blogger put it might be excerbating the problem.
although like i said the rates of non-jewish guys who are good or not good so mabye the only way to fix it is cowing the men into submission.
I was just thinking about this today.
I am a "frum" guy, former yeshiva bachur and I have had several relationships with girls that have always ended up badly.
During the course of my relationship I was the utmost gentleman. Always polite, doing my utmost to avoid confrontation. She even remarked to me "we never fight its so boring" . The fights came later always instigated by her inevitably ending up with me hitting the dust yet again.
If I have learned one thing is not to trust women! Though I'm no longer particularly frum I cant help but think back to the Talmudic dictum that "women are feeble minded.
NB: You got that right, but I sense that you aren’t coming from the same place that a lot of these bochurim are.
EC: Take the plunge , dating is fun.
F_Ideal : From what I hear they need to give courses on how to speak to your Chavrusa too.
HNC: I envy you, what planet are you living on.
Elster: I always answered your emails LOL
CJ Did you get the email ?
Shev: #15 I am truly hurt.. …..NOT!
FG, MYBald, EC:
Very true, however, you don’t want to throw out the baby with the bathwater.. Someone emailed me before the summer. He seemed to have issues, but there was a sweetness about him. So I corresponded with him, even IMed and Chatted.. Eventually, I sent him a few links from futuresimchas.com, and coached him a bit how to act on a date.. I just heard a few days ago that he is getting engaged in a few weeks as a result of this..
Ying: Hey, where’s mine ?
BB : You obviously have a lot to learn about women..
Funny.. Steven, How come I know so many women who say the same thing about men..
Maybe you just didnt meet the right one yet, or you are going about it the wrong way..
This whole post--not to mention many of the comments--begs the question.
In Lakewood, guys meeting girls, outside of a properly set up shidduch date, isn't part of the social register. Therefore, lulei demistafina, a guy who isn't yet "on the market" has no outlet. ZERO.
So, quite naturally, a guy who wants to "make a move," but knows he can't is going to resort to something juvenile, like taking a picture and building a whole fantasy around it. It's a little sad, but also a little sweet and innocent. And absolutely no danger to the girl. His next step--should he have the shteeks to take it, which he probably doesn't--is simply to approach her (at which point she will either turn crimson, point him in the direction of the lake requesting that he jump in, or both).
Furthermore, these guys are not nebby or awkward. Take a look at all the yeshiva guys who never so much as said hello to a girl before their first shidduch date. The majority do a pretty good job at making conversation--certainly as good as any secular guy trying to talk to a woman in a bar. And the majority (but by no means all) treat their wives well.
That's the Lakewood model. It's not perfect but it works. There are some cracks, but most are mild and not life-threatening.
You should talk to the girls your age in college and in the workplace. They will give you much better stories illustrating (a) how men can be pigs; and (b) how men can harass women.
Sem...
Gosh..I can't even relate. I feel like a Grandfather and I'm only 30!
The world has changed so much since I was in Yeshiva. There were always guys on the fringe...that would hang out with girls...but they were "cool guys" and the girls found it cool. As for the rest of the guys..sure I'd think about girls and developed crushes on some of my sisters friends but aside for some stares and smiles..there was simply nothing to do..lol
When it came to dating..I had no problem talking to a girl...(although I married the first one I went out with)..and I think most yeshiva bochuring from normal families relate nicely with the opposite sex.
I don't really see any options here..Yeshivas can't exactly have a "How to talk to girls" class between 1st and 2nd Seder. Although Mussar seder should take care of it..I suspect that those that stay for Mussar don't have these problems.
This has to be instilled in the home. From my work with teens I've found that most "creepy" boys or boys that totally can't relate to the opposite gender are from broken, divorced homes and they've never had role models to follow.
Sem, oh my gosh, I just went to a discussion recently somewhere about something simular. And they brought up some good points like what if when you're on a date, he says something like an offensive joke, what do you do? Do you tell him how you feel? Or do you just make a mental note and later discuss it with the shadchan or someone?
Some guys in general don't pay attention to impact of their words and say whatever they are thinking. They need to be taught to think twice before they speak and say something better.
CJ and David, you both put it so well I think. Things are obviously so hard for a horny teen in our community, but to say that the system is way off is hard to say, because obviously it is not.
But if anyone has some good ideas for those cracks, I'm all ears.
Shalom
i know that one of my highschool principles gave a speach to the 12th graders about how to treat their wives (when they got them) he wanted to take advantage of the time to mention to them to speak respectfully to their wives, to speak with them at length, as much as was needed to make them happy with the relationship, even described it as praisworthy to speak with her. he incidently remarked that the perkei avos about don't talk to much with a woman only involved those topics which would lead to certain things, at the time she was nidda. (he gave the drush when we where going over that section of perkei avot after pasach, and wanted just to point it out as a big pitfall he didn't want any of his 12th graders taking when they got married.)
I think Masmida hits on an important point. There is a difference between the fantasy underlying an internet infatuation and the well deserved interest that might be generated from getting to know somebody in person. People who reach out to you on the internet are probably doing so only because of the anonymity provided. If they are engaging in behavior they deem too shameful to repeat in their "real" life, do you really want to get tied up with their game?
But on the other hand, if you come into contact with somebody in real life who genuinely strikes you as an appropriate shidduch (ie you're not merely "struck" by their beauty or by the opportunity to cuddle in a dark movie theater), then I don't think there is any shame in looking into them. Of course, you have to be respectful, but you also don't have to be passive and wait for somebody else to suggest it. Even approaching the target and getting enough personal information from polite chatter can give you enough to pursue them further through official channels. Nobody said love can't start with you.
actualy one of my friends did that, and also our rabbi (according to the story which may or may not be true and even if it was he wouldn't admit it for fear of giving the teens in his community ideas)
but generaly i agree it should be ok for people to either suggest shidduchim with people who they for one reason or another know well, or even it should not be (and wasn't untill recently) bad for people to directly get to know each other as long as it is respectfull and well behaved (i believe that there are entire volumes of shailos and t'shuvos on this boys and girls interacting from rishonim, including rabainu asher and his son)
but then on i also think it would be a good idea to give a formal, controlled arena for boys and girls to be around each other shidduchim or no, like the shabbos table, it's well chaperoned. it might amoung other things help otherwise "estrogen deprived" boys be a little better.
I would tend to agree with you, TB. Although, once again I say don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. I've met some very lovely ppl online, as well. You, for example..
Hey, did you delete my earlier post? I'm curious about how this anonymous stranger would know who your close friend's are.
YG.. I meant close cyber-friends and fellow bloggers.
BB: Actually I think Masmida and TB had you in mind with their advice..
it would certainly help the singles get to understand a little how the other gender thinks, and also help them really get to have a better surrounding for considering people with out all the stress.
personaly i think they should start it around 17 to 18. and i'm not sure if people should be carefull if when ever a particular boy/girl pair who always focus on each other are there, or down right encourage it within the confines of that venue. but i suspect the reality would be based on each case, in kind of a middle of the road approach. if it affects them well then good, if they are starting to get distracted and slack off from things then i guess it would be bad.
(and yes i have met even chassidishe families who do this sometimes, and even with boys and girls of around 16, happened to me a few times in yeshiva, but then on i was the bochur they could trust to send to places where they knew girls might be)
If you don't mind me saying so, HNC, what do you mean by 'trust'. Because, if you mean that you didn't have normal feelings for girls (whatever that entails, feelings for boys, asexual, whatever), I don't think thats the right influence for young impressionable Frum boys or girls. I am not saying my personal opinion or prejudice, just the prevailing attitudes and beliefs of any Chasidishe or Orthodox school.
If you did have normal, healthy feelings for girls, then I am sure that they knew you well enough that you wouldn't like attack them or act innappropriately around them, but you still are going to have bad thoughts and commit serious aveiras in private, as well as possibly cause the girls to do likewise.
So call a spade a spade, either a young boy or girl is rebelling and associating with the other gender for the same reason they might be violating any other halacha, or they are being groomed for a particular Shidduch. I dont quite understand what you mean by a middle ground. As always I appreciate your input.
in terms of trust, i was trust worthy not to misbehave, either with them or otherwise, and no contrary to popular oppinion no boys do not have to go
my issue on all this is that, basicaly the system we currently have up is so seperating the boys and girls that it is encouraging boys to regard girls as commodities, and this is unhealthy, it leads to the kind of problems that boys even see a girl and they have an uncontrolable desire to do something bad (and btw it just isn't a sin for the girl to do so, and never was)
it leads to the dissrespectfull behavior in this post, and while i might not be quite a normal boy, i have less problems uniformly across the board (w/o exception) with doing any mitzvos. i mean mabye my expiriance isn't the norm, i just don't know, i do know i'm compleately blown away by the boy blogs such as yeitzer tov, i just can't relate to that.
however there wont be a problem if you start introducing the boys and girls to each other in an informal setting, with chaperones, where they can kinda test the waters so to speak. nothing flashy, nothing questionable, but i just feel that the way they seperate the boys and girls today is actualy exacerbating the problem. like our sages said in everything you should take the middle road, and while they excepted anger and humility, they did not except boys and girls.
i guess it just always seemed for me the less they where just "girls" and the more they became individual people with everything that goes with it, the better off i did, in every way, psychologicaly, middos, mitvos, everything. so it's not just putting boys and girls around each other stam, my point is that they should learn to appriciate the fact the other gender are people, not just things. to lesson the objectifyingness, (and i know thats not a word i just know that objectivity means something compleately different) also for the sake of making shidduchim when they come of the right age. i also feel that if you don't start this before a certain age it may be too late.
mabye TB can give a better explanation. she seemed to agree.
Yup, agreed. I got an email from a guy asking me my stats. I'm thinking, what does he want? My single status? My bra size? What? So I write him back, asking what he means and he asks if I'm frum because he needs to ask a frum girl some questions. I reply telling him I'm not but maybe I can answer his question. So he writes back and asks me (I'll put it shortly) if all frum girls "shave down there".
WHOAH!!! I told him, FIRST if he is a bochur as he claimed, he knows better than to ask that question, and I said some other stuff to put him in his place. Gladly, he's never responded again.
The internet has it's downfalls, but I won't let those few pervs ruin the positives.
Whenever anyone asks for my "stats"
I just tell them .344 12 HRs and 122 RBIs
I totally agree with the sentiments you express here. I should just like to point out a few things about why I think yeshiva bochurim would send "flirtatious" emails to girls.
Bear with me for a minute- See, yeshiva bochurim are not given any resources for helping us deal with sexuality. And living in the years 2005, with so much promiscuity in the air, it becomes very difficult for some of us. When we are told that sexuality is a bad thing and not told how to deal with it, sex festers in our minds. And the internet becomes a place where many yeshiva bochurim feel that they can explore and indulge themselves. On this note I applaud Lakewood's intentions in trying to stop people from involving themselves in the pitfalls of the internet (how they implemented it is an entirely different story). Yeshiva bochurim need to be taught how to deal with their sexuality.
What yeshiva bochurim don't seem to get is that beis yaakov girls are not "turned on" by "sexy" emails. Rather, most beis yaakov girls think these emails are twisted, perverse and gross. Girls are different than guys and OFTEN are looking for something different from a guy than a guy is looking for from a girl. More about that a different time... Emailing a girl with something bordering on perverse internet is a quick sick selfish pleasure.
That said, I don't agree with the sentiment that if a yeshiva bochur takes a picture of a girl then he is doing "gross" things with it. There are some of us healthy bochurim out there that really are looking for a pretty girl, and not for "sick twisted reasons". Pretty and sexy are very different.
it's separated
NOT seperated
sorry - but i just couldn't help myself
Mata.. what is your comment referring to ??
sem - a couple of the posts had the word spelled wrong, that's all.
nothing to do with content
for what it's worth, i think that if people email nasty stuff to you, you should block them and not respond...or stay out of the chat rooms where it's likely to happen
i also think that the guys, no matter how sheltered they are, know when they're being inappropriate and creepy.
and the ones who aren't, at least if your talking to them in person, you can usualy tell if they don't mean it.
frumsingleguy - i disagree with you. i think these guys know very well that the bais yaakov girls (or any girl who hasn't indicated otherwise) aren't turned on by dirty emails from a stranger. i think they're getting their kicks out of it....they like shocking.
Mata Hari
Perhaps we agree- my point, that I felt I didn't make clear, is that a "sexually deprived" yeshiva bochur (or any guy for that matter) will act selfishly and, for the most part, will only concern himself with what he wants, not thinking or caring what or how he is harming anyone, other than his own reputation.
ok - now I agree with you! :)
I want to reinforce a point that FrumSingleGuy made that was right on the money. A "sexually deprived" yeshiva guy who goes outside the normal bounds of talking to girls is bound to be looking for something outside the bounds of normal behavior. So don't be surprised when the anonymous guy stalking you online *surprise* isn't just looking for friendship. And that goes for the guy at the grocery store who hits on you. Girls are the same.
Anyone from a "sexually deprived" environment obviously will have a lot of extra charge. The Orthodox community, knowing this, has done a lot to curtail those opportunities. So be cautious of anyone trying to play outside the system.
I wouldn't call myself naive, but "hopefully optmistic", I ask the following: What % of frum "learning" guys do u think r really going out there, married, and cheating, and flirting, without their wives having a clue about it?
Michelle.. I agree with you ..hope the number is small.
Tova.. I was actually thinking of posting something new today, thanks for the nudge.
In response to Michelle, maybe I'm also naive, and there certainly is a problem, you'd have to be blind to deny that. But because of the nature of our community, I think the bad seeds get seized on and blown out of proportion. I think if you asked the average guy in Lakewood about this stuff he'd look at you like you're from outer-space.
I don't think the questions posed about the issues in Torah communities are meant to alarm us of overpowering trends. I think SemGirl and others just try and bring light to issues that don't otherwise get discussed. Even if it only affects one percent of the population, understanding the underlying causes can head off much anguish in the community.
Josh,
I agree with you. In my years in blog land I have found blogging to be a great place to explore and uncover issues that may not affect many but certainly affect a few. Blogging is a great forum for people to discuss things that are not often dicussed publicly.
There are no real numbers of how many frum yidden are involved in immoral things- it is too hidden a topic to be talked about publicly. But I could tell you that the numbers of friends I have, yeshivish and chassidishe, that are involved in these types of things is staggering.
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What % of frum "learning" guys do u think r really going out there, married, and cheating, and flirting, without their wives having a clue about it?
Very few.
Happy Hanukah to you too, JBF. Nice to hear from you..
There's no question that the percentage of frum guys cheating is... very small. B"H. But... what makes you so sure that chasidishe women allow their husbands to cheat? where'd you get that from?
so if i ask for a link i get one? cool. Oh and there are plenty of sickos, but when you write about highly sensitive subjects thats what seems to happen. sorry for all men.
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