Hi, I was just your typical 19 year old Seminary girl in South Jersey (if you don't know where I mean, you are probably on the wrong blog). We all have nisoynos, challenges, and experiences, both positive and negative. Here is where I have decided to share some of them.

Location: Lakewood, New Jersey, United States

Wednesday, December 28, 2005

Something Positive

I think its time for a positive topic for a change. After a long, dryspell I finally went on a date last week.

We went to a very posh, luxurious lounge in a prominent Westchester hotel. It was actually quite cozy, sitting in the comfy overstuffed armchairs, in one of the smaller conference rooms. Although, I definitely felt that with the subdued lighting, lavender carpets, plush ebony couchs, hearthstone roaring fireplace, it was really a tad bit too romantic for a first date. Fortunately, BH I felt so comfortable and there was so much chemistry, for a change that it wasnt so bad.

The conversation was actually pretty intersting. Different things that are going on in Lakewood, like the new Hockey Stadium proposal. Yeshivish polotics is always so amusing. But I really had to bite my lip when the subject of Internet came up. Although, as a rule, Monsey boys tend to be more chilled out.

We also spoke about music, art, books, food and other stuff. All in all, it made for very stimulating conversation. I really enjoyed the indoor waterfalls, and gorgeous flower gardens. When we walked around the grounds outside, it was so conducive to amorous activity, I desperately wanted to at least hold hands, but BH I was good for a change and managed to do the whole Shmer Negia trip..

That is clearly due in part to a wonderful role model that I really look up to . I feel terrible that things didnt work out for her recently. B'ezras Hashem they will in the near future. I also want to thank my best friend, for her constant Chizuk, as well as, other friends. You know who you are...

The night was not without some adventure, when he took a wrong turn and we got totally lost and ended up in the Bronx, in the middle of the night.

However, I just love Bach, Beethoven, Tscaikovsky and the smell of Polo or Aramis. That along with wavy brown hair, a radiant smile, and a very robust physique really melts me.

All in all, it was a wonderful date..

Obviously, I have changed many details around to preserve anonymity..


Blogger Masmida said...

Something much more postive and purposeful indeed.

right guy at the right time in the right way.... soon!

12/28/2005 5:26 PM  
Blogger Parsha Potpourri said...

SG - Sounds great! Best of luck and keep us posted! The merit of staying SN should help you find the right one quickly!

I'm just curious as a guy - I assume this was a BMG or at least yeshivishe guy given your prior descriptions of the boys your father lets you go out with. Do you as a girl assume that even with an amourous atmosphere as you described it (unless that was one of the changed details :), the average yeshivishe guy would be interested in holding hands? How can you gauge? And you're not afraid that it would actually turn him off, get back to your parents via the shadchan, etc?

12/28/2005 6:03 PM  
Blogger Semgirl said...

PP ...Duh , I said I thought, had the desire to.. Obviously I WOULDN'T. Im not suicidal..

12/28/2005 6:28 PM  
Blogger Halfnutcase said...

pragmatic are we? :-D

sounds good, hope you get another date. and furthermore i hope that there aren't any skelletons in his closet. (of any kind)

good luck!

(and if he's not the right one, then i hope he screws up big time to show it to you.)

12/28/2005 6:59 PM  
Blogger Halfnutcase said...

is the classical music something you do in rebelion or do they condone it?

(you wouldn't believe the kinds of things most of that music was origionaly written for either, there is a reason that they called betoven's period the romantic period.) (classical music is a favorite for me)

12/28/2005 7:05 PM  
Blogger brooklyn bochur said...

mazel tov in advance!!!

12/28/2005 8:09 PM  
Blogger Y.Y. said...

lots of luck to you i hope it works out for the best

12/28/2005 8:13 PM  
Blogger Josh said...

very robust physique

For your sake, hopefully that wasn't one of the things you changed for anonymity!

Actually, SG, when you said that NJG's blog had an impact on you in such a practical sense, I found that really touching. I know we come from different worlds, and I tease you (probably too often) about your amorous escapades, but I think that learning from other's experiences is what blogging is all about. I find NJG inspiring as well, in how she demonstrates everyone's own control over their decisions.

I'm glad you finally got a date that was your speed, and I hope to hear more, about him or others, in the future. Feel free to ask us for advice - we want to feel like best-friends, not just voyuers...

12/28/2005 8:56 PM  
Blogger yeshivaguy said...

"That is clearly due in part to a wonderful role model that I really look up to ."

You are shomer negiah b/c of a woman who is not shomer negiah?

12/28/2005 10:26 PM  
Blogger Semgirl said...

Thank you, YY.. and I apreciate that you act like a mench on my blog..

12/28/2005 10:27 PM  
Blogger Semgirl said...

Josh that is such a sweet thing to say..

YG that is really mean and vicious, how old were you when got married..

12/28/2005 10:31 PM  
Blogger Mata Hari said...

you just made a "lounge date" sound extremely glamorous and fun. hope the next date's even better. good luck.

12/28/2005 11:22 PM  
Blogger Elisheva said...

Okay, I'm late. I have been like AWOL recently and I apologize.

Thanx for the nice mention. You are too kind SemGirl. I am sorry for my spotty appearances. I have been basically just logging on, doing e-mail, and logging off. No major reason, but this is how it has been lately. For reasons of privacy, it is best kept at that.

BTW, loads of people ask me how to keep your anonymity while you blog. One of them I guess is like not writing every little detail even though it will explain things. You have to use your brains. (Yes we girls have them too... shocking, isn't it.)

About the post, so happy for you, SG. We can't get our hopes too high, but we can't kill hope either. Let's daven and at least you enjoyed this date, whatever the outcome. And it's nice to at least know there are nice boys and nice dates out there.


12/29/2005 12:15 AM  
Blogger Eshet Chayil said...

Sounds so nice! I'm with Elishiva. Keep high hopes. He sounds like a doll.

12/29/2005 2:43 AM  
Blogger The Rabbi's Kid said...

Hi SG,

Good to see that you can find (so far) decent guys out there, we are a rare breed!

I was also inspired by NJG, it's a constant struggle and I wish you luck.

Keep us posted.


12/29/2005 3:08 AM  
Blogger Pragmatician said...

It's always nice to read positive experiences; with this cold weather we can all use a warm feeling.
I once dated in New York and had no idea where to take the girl, too bad I didn't now about this great place you were at.
Btw the getting lost is a classic, it’s also a great way to analyze your date’s behavior in an unexpected situation.

12/29/2005 4:20 AM  
Blogger nobody28 said...

I am so happy for you that you've finally had a good dating experience!! Even If it doesn't work out with this guy, at least you have hope!

Good Luck!

12/29/2005 8:37 AM  
Blogger yeshivaguy said...

"YG that is really mean and vicious,"

Mean and vicious? Not at all. I was simply commenting on the illogic of learning the importance of a obligation from one who doesn't keep it.

As for my age at marriage, I don't really see the relevance, but if you must know, I was in my mid-20s.

12/29/2005 9:55 AM  
Blogger ms. shtark said...

hey, can't wait to bring out the champagne!
But please, don't get too caught up with all the glamor and good looks. make sure he has some substance but u know my take on this. wishing u all the best of luck!!

12/29/2005 10:02 AM  
Blogger BarbaraFromCalifornia said...

Sounds like a very interesting date, and as if you were happy with the situation.

Have a Happy Hanukah!

12/29/2005 10:06 AM  
Blogger lakewoodrules said...

A couple things :

1. "Monsey boys tend to be more chilled out" Way to sterotype an entire town of guys.

2. The SN blog may have touched you, but what does it say about you that you are already considering touching a guy and YOU JUST MET HIM. Unless you are planning on getting married within the next ten days, I'd say that you have no hope of staying shomer, or anything close to it, until you are engaged, let alone married.

12/29/2005 10:18 AM  
Blogger Jewboy said...

Hey Lakewoodrules, why does everyone think they can be the judge of everyone else? Let SG's actions be between her and G-d.

12/29/2005 10:24 AM  
Blogger AbleVaybel said...

LWR - please get a grip on yourself! Semgirl is talking about her feelings and the ability to control our actions on our feelings is one of the gifts from the Aibishter.

Mazel Tov on the nice date, Semgirl! You should go from strength to strength and not from guy to guy. I have to echo the hope that he is the right guy for right now and if he isn't, that you are allowed to see it soon.

I totally agree about the smell of someone - I've been completely put off by scent, not that the person was unclean or anything, just somehow repellent to me. And certain colognes are just wonderful...

Thanks for the good post and the recent visit....

12/29/2005 10:25 AM  
Blogger my bald sheitel said...

lakewood - having the desire to hold hands means you are attracted to someone. you are supposed to be in order to marry them. duh. to me, this sounds like chemistry sem girl. hatzlacha.

12/29/2005 12:13 PM  
Blogger Halfnutcase said...

YG what you said was entirely intolerable. HOW DARE you criticize NJG for her having broken shomer negia after keeping it till she was 35! i highly doubt anyone ANYONE has ever mannaged it that long with out being married ever. she is most deffinitely a tzadekes just for that, and anyone who has the collosal gall and arrogance to question that after 35 years she just couldn't anymore (and it's not like she's giving it up either, she plans to be shomer negiah from now on also!)

you can't say that she's not shomer negiah just because of one slip up. it happens to the best of people, (remember according to chazal even most tzadikim mess up at some point, sometimes big sometimes small, and also the saying that a tzadik falls 7 times, and gets up 7 times, which is EXACTLY what she's doing. so she fell once, she's also getting right back up, nor is she saying what she did was right.)

now i'm going to back off now because i'm getting red in the face with anger from just how terrible your comment was, and anger is a BAD BAD thing, and it's considered as if someone had worshiped idols if they ever get angry, so i'm going to stop this indignation before i really do get angry...

A Very upset

(and yg you should big time appologize puplicaly to NJG who ever she is for what you said about someone so good and determined in her mitzvos)

12/29/2005 12:21 PM  
Blogger lakewoodrules said...

Jewboy, AV,MBS- I was not criticizing her for feeling attracted to the guy, obviously. I was pointing out that she was patting herself on the back for demonstarting self-control on a first date.

12/29/2005 1:28 PM  
Blogger David_on_the_Lake said...

Wow...I can't believe there are boys under 25 that appreciate Bach..Tchaikovsky...
Very impressive..

12/29/2005 2:59 PM  
Blogger Semgirl said...

Masmida: Amen

Shev: So happy to hear from means a lot.

Prag: Thank You

HNC: Actually I always hear Class music in my house, cant speak for everyone..

BB: Lets hope..

Josh: I don’t know if I can say this about everyone here ( hint, hint) , but you have always been a dear friend..

Mata Hari: I try..

EC: Thanks, IYH by you too.. BTW are you going to answer my email..

TRK: And getting rarer.. I hope you are part of that breed..

NB: Thanks for everything.. I really mean that..

YG: “ Mean and vicious? Not at all. I was simply commenting on the illogic of learning the importance of a obligation from one who doesn't keep it.”

So tell me something, if you speak Loshon Hara just once, and regret it, are you a Baal LH that should be “thrown to the dogs” Chofetz Chaim’s words not mine..

Mid 20s, my point exactly, NJG is 35..You should really email her an apology.

Mstark: What don’t just go for a Hotty, has someone stolen your S Name , lol..

Barbs: Thank you.. You too.. Send my best wishes to your daughter..

Lrules: 1) I stand corrected all the Monsey guys I have known .. 2) I was just revaling my thoughts and desires, that’s it.. Geez, this is a blog, not Divorce Court, Counselor..

JewBoy: Thank you..Ditto..

Aveibl: Ditto again..

MyBaldSheitl: Thank You..LWR double DUH..

Dave: Who said, he was under 25.. Just joking.. He did admit that they were his mother’s Cds, and she told him girls like that stuff.

12/29/2005 3:35 PM  
Blogger FrumSingleGuy said...

Wow, good for you semgirl for your nice date. I must agree with mata hari- I never heard anyone make a lounge date sound so glamorous. In fact, in my years of dating I have been to a loungs once, and that was this past christmas eve (nothing was open). I stay away from them. But then it is not so much as where you go as to whom you are going with.

I know the responses I am going to get for saying this, or at least what is going through some of your stereotypical minds, but I too have felt the desire to hold a girls hand on a date and I am not suicidal either LOL. I wish you luck in all your dating endeavors and hope this guy turns out to be as dreamy as you make him sound.

BTW- Michael Koors for men- a unique smell and two different frum beis yaakov girls have commented on it on past dates. Wish you could smell it sometime...

12/29/2005 3:57 PM  
Blogger FrumSingleGuy said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

12/29/2005 4:00 PM  
Blogger FrumSingleGuy said...

Oh and by the way- there are some of us yeshiva guys who appreciate Bach and Mozart. Ever hear of the Trans-Siberian Orchestra? Though they only have one album that is not Christmas songs, if you fancy a different and interesting concept in music that is still classical, pick up their album entitled "Beethoven's Last Night"- amazing...

12/29/2005 4:01 PM  
Blogger Mata Hari said...

frumsingleguy - i definitely agree that it's who you're with and not what you do that makes it fun. when i'm with a guy i'm not interested in, i don't care if it's an expensive restaurant - i just want out of there....and if i like the guy - i'm happy just hanging out and being comfortable.

12/29/2005 4:15 PM  
Blogger big mak said...

hi semgirl lets hope that you'll find your partner very soon , and cant wait to hear about your engagement

12/29/2005 4:32 PM  
Blogger Masmida said...

[rolls eyes]

Semgirl suggests she wants to hold hands and doesn't and people get all uptight.

the body is terminally stupid. it wants all sorts of things, that it shouldn't have. the question is what does the person do.

Kol Ha'kavod to you Semgirl. and keep strong.

12/29/2005 6:48 PM  
Blogger TzioynishBochur said...

Hey, SemGirl, I just came upon ur blog while reading hasidic rebel's stuff (i saw the name semgirl and naturally felt compelled to click. U have to understand, as a frum 20yr old college boy, there are two things that grab my attention more than anything else in the world and those things are long skirts, and the words 'seminary' and 'girl' joined together, im not gonna lie). Whatever, just wanted to say that after the rebel, ur blog is most interesting. What i find most interesting is how a seminary girl can write so well. I know quite a few lubavitch girls here in montreal, and let's just say their secular-skills arent the strongest. Anyways, i would have written this to u in an email, but i havent figured out how to do that yet. A fraylechen chanikeh, and good luck with that boy.

12/29/2005 7:11 PM  
Blogger ms. shtark said...

hey semgirl, no one stole my SN - lol. Of course he has got to be hot! we know that, but he cant be a jerk either!!
frumsingleguy, i love trans-siberian orchestra. I thought that all their stuff was christmas music. thanks for letting me know about that title. if you like that kind of music, try vanessa mae and a group called "bond". bond is a group of 3 girls who play rocked up classical music on violin and cello with a whole background orchestra. it is really cool (the jacket covers are not too modest but u can always throw it out)
semgirl, sorry for doing that on your thread. it had nothing to do with your great date. hope e.t turns out well. wink wink

12/29/2005 7:27 PM  
Blogger Halfnutcase said...

i didn't know there where frum people raised around "classical music". nice to know i'm not the only one who was. (bach, vivalti, mozart, behtoven, tchikovsy, paganini, brahms, (and several dozon others i can't think of, and couldn't spell for the life of me)

if you cant tell it is happy news that at least some frum people dont mind the idea of listening to the great classical composers.

gonna tell us who your favorite composer is? (or for that matter your favorite of the famous conductors)

12/29/2005 7:40 PM  
Blogger RBR said...

I can relate with you on the whole dry spell thing. Im happy that you actually enjoyed yourself, ecsp. on a first date!

I think, and i speak for myself as well, every frum boy and girl has that desire to want to touch the opposite sex. No matter your upbringing. Not to say that some people don't find it easier then others, but its a hard thing to control. In the end everyone does what is right for them. Only you can decide which step you take next.

Good luck!

12/29/2005 8:53 PM  
Blogger Josh said...

I think the getting lost in the Bronx part was key. If date's go too much as planned, the whole thing is scripted. But when something unexpected happens, does he laugh, does he panic, does he get angry, etc. This is the guy/girl when they can't control everything, and that is real life. Of course guys will follow rules and protocol, but take them out of their element, and you can see if they're worth anything. Too bad you can't always get such a telling experience on a first date!

12/29/2005 10:14 PM  
Blogger David_on_the_Lake said...

Most Jews seem to like Tchaikovsky best as his music (and most Russian Classical) exotic sound that Jews can relate to.

12/29/2005 10:38 PM  
Blogger ms. shtark said...

I like vivaldi the best!
HNC you spelled almost all of them wrong, except for like bach and mozart. lol
I am also a big fan of the nutcracker so that music is awesome too.

12/30/2005 12:06 AM  
Blogger Eshet Chayil said...

SG, I haven't gotten any new emails from you. Can you resend? So sorry. I'm usually good about answering.

12/30/2005 4:18 AM  
Blogger The Rabbi's Kid said...

can i just point out that if you don't wanna hold his hand, maybe he isn't the one for you?

12/30/2005 9:25 AM  
Blogger Halfnutcase said...

i never could spell. :-) (you wouldn't believe the grades i got on spelling as a first grader. its the only subject i ever even considered cheating on. i did just that badly.)

12/30/2005 9:26 AM  
Blogger AbleVaybel said...

Josh made a good point about seeing how people are out of their element or in a (hopefully small) crisis - like getting lost. Or stumbling over the doorstep, like the first time I met my husband. That and the ability to laugh - at one's self, at the same jokes, etc. is huge. Unfortunately, that stuff isn't always available at the first date.

Good luck!

12/30/2005 11:25 AM  
Blogger KiddushClubGuy said...

a conference room? how did he get access?

12/30/2005 12:21 PM  
Blogger Halfnutcase said...

mini-crisises are deffinitely the way to go in ascertaining a dates character. especialy when kids who are around do something unexpected (like accidently over turning ice cream on his suit, little kids attemping to steal his hat, kids actualy stealing his hat, ect)...

then on at that rate why not make a point of for instance asking your date to wait a second while you do something, and would he kindly watch what ever 2-4 year old is running around causing so much trouble...
have to know how they react to kids.

12/30/2005 12:24 PM  
Blogger Jewboy said...

I must say that I think this whole idea of "testing" your date is kinda dumb. You can't compare what a guy would do if some 2 year old he doesn't know stole his hat to what he would do if his own child did the same. I'll admit that if a guy is extraordinarily cruel to kids or very nice and caring that that can be an indication of his character. But I don't think it's really a good idea to purposefully "test" a date that way. Leave testing him up to G-d.

12/30/2005 12:35 PM  
Blogger Semgirl said...

KCGuy :

At nite after 7, the rooms are open to the public. Its really a beautiful place, I would definitely go back there.

12/30/2005 12:47 PM  
Blogger Semgirl said...

I agree with Jewboy , I know too many ppl men and women that are wonderful to everyone else's children and disgustiing to their own family.

12/30/2005 12:50 PM  
Blogger Jewboy said...

Just a quick anecdote along the lines of my last post. A guy's on a date with a girl and they're driving in his car. Suddenly, she grabs the gearshift and puts the car in park. The car screeches to a halt but the guy doesn't get angry. The girl says, "You passed my test." He says, "Well, you failed mine."

12/30/2005 1:38 PM  
Blogger EN said...

SG-What great news! It sounds promising. I am so happy for you that you had a great time. Good Shabbos.

12/30/2005 4:12 PM  
Blogger Josh said...

In concert with Jewboy's point, I want to clarify that I think it is a terrible mistake to intentionally test your date, in any way. You can learn a person's real nature from unscripted events, but intentionally playing with their mind to see how they react won't result in anything positive.

I also want to say Tzionish was right on the money...

12/31/2005 7:11 PM  
Blogger Lvnsm27 said...

Sem, wow that's great news BH.

B'sha'a Tova

1/01/2006 4:42 AM  
Blogger Datingmaster, Jerusalem said...

I am happy you had agood time but you should know that married life is so much more complex
sex is so poerful after wards
but enjoy as they say one step at a time

1/01/2006 5:47 AM  
Blogger Lost said...

GREAT 2 hear you had an enjoyable date.. much luck with this guy in the new year!!~Lost

1/01/2006 11:40 AM  
Blogger Masmida said...

Who wants to marry a guy that they need to test in order to be able to trust them?

Why does the central dating problem seems to be that people don't realize that you might be spending the rest of your life with this person, so its a good idea to start off nice.

[semgirl, how do you do this? one post 56 comments!]

1/01/2006 12:47 PM  
Blogger Halfnutcase said...

ok, it seems the consensus is that it is not only a bad idea, but it is just mean... sorry. :-(

1/01/2006 6:41 PM  
Blogger yeshivaguy said...

"HOW DARE you criticize NJG for her having broken shomer negia after keeping it till she was 35! i highly doubt anyone ANYONE has ever mannaged it that long with out being married ever."

You've gotta be kidding. I know people who I am sure have kept it far longer, only they don't get onto the net to boast about it. It all depends on your commitment. Besides, I wasn't criticizing SNG (although I will in a moment), but simply pointing out the illogic of learning self-control from someone who has publicly proclaimed that she has not excercised it.

And by the way, she does not regret what she did. She says it was the right thing at the right time, or something to that effect.

"So tell me something, if you speak Loshon Hara just once, and regret it, are you a Baal LH that should be “thrown to the dogs” Chofetz Chaim’s words not mine.."

There's a difference between being nichshal once and between making a public announcement that you are thinking about being nichshal, and then documenting the aveirah for everyone, and then saying how wonderful it was. I think she's a chotah u'machati, and not someone from whom to learn self-control.

1/02/2006 1:30 PM  
Blogger FrumGirl said...

SemGirl, I got this feeling of girlish anticipation for you! Wow, your date sounded like a dream! Please keep us posted!

1/02/2006 1:38 PM  
Blogger Halfnutcase said...

yeshiva guy:

you do realize that anyone who is as arrogently sure of himself as you are is guranteed to be wrong.

our sages do teach "don't be sure of yourself untill the day you die"

NJG isn't, she's commiting to continuing the shomer negia in future dating and that is the ikkur. change in thought in our tradition is irrelevant. action is principle. if she quits the deed she has repented. (which from what i understand she has.)


1/02/2006 1:58 PM  
Blogger Halfnutcase said...

and btw, so are these people over 35 and not married and never been married, etc? i really find that hard to believe. (i've never in my life met such a person who was a frum from birth)

and she doesn't boast on her blog either.

1/02/2006 2:00 PM  
Blogger Tanisha said...

Bout time you wrote this piece. Mazel Tov and I hope another date is in the writings on the wall. I am so happy for you. Take care and keep us posted..

1/02/2006 2:15 PM  
Blogger yeshivaguy said...

"and btw, so are these people over 35 and not married and never been married, etc?"

Yes, and ffb too.

Re. SNG, why don't you read her posts before darshening? She is not regretful, and has definitely not committed to remaining shomeres negiah from here on in.

1/02/2006 2:54 PM  
Blogger Jewboy said...

Yeshivaguy, why don't you get a clue? With all your self righteousness you seem to have forgotten to be dan lkaf zchus. You have no right to criticize SNG, who went through torment few of us can imagine. Lay off her.

1/02/2006 4:36 PM  
Blogger yeshivaguy said...

"who went through torment few of us can imagine."

Give me a break, will you?

1/02/2006 5:33 PM  
Blogger Halfnutcase said...

yeshiva guy, you really are an extremely cruel and un feeling person. (not to mention entirely with out torah, for we are taught that someone with a cruel heart is not capable of having torah.)

1/02/2006 6:00 PM  
Blogger Jewboy said...

I can only echo the comment of Halfnutcase, Yeshivaguy. Where's your rachmanus for an afflicted neshama? Just the fact that she was shomer negiah for as long as she was is commendable. I don't know what your marital status is, but if you are married and got married fairly young, you really have no room to judge her because you cannot fathom the nisayon she went through. Her blog is not an attempt to publicize and flout her "sin", as you seem to think it is, but an attempt to reconcile her feelings by writing them down. I can only feel pity for you because you seem to have forgotten that Hashem created the world with rachamim as well as din. You would do well to incorporate some rachamim into your life.

1/02/2006 6:47 PM  
Blogger yeshivaguy said...

"Her blog is not an attempt to publicize and flout her "sin","

You're right, it's not an "attempt" to flaunt (not flout); it is an actual, quite successful flaunting of her sin.

"yeshiva guy, you really are an extremely cruel and un feeling person."

Not at all, just someone who dislikes b.s. But you're welcome to believe what you wish.

1/02/2006 8:14 PM  
Blogger FrumGirl said...

Yeshivaguy - why are you so intolerant?

1/02/2006 8:38 PM  
Blogger Jewboy said...

For someone who dislikes b.s., funny how you're so full of it your eyes are brown, YG.

1/02/2006 8:49 PM  
Blogger yeshivaguy said...

B/c it annoys me when a supposedly frum person publicly flaunts their sin. It should bug you too, frum girl.

1/02/2006 8:50 PM  
Blogger yeshivaguy said...

"your eyes are brown, YG."

How'd you know? Do we know each other?

1/02/2006 8:51 PM  
Blogger Semgirl said...


You sound like a lot of the jerks I went out with. BH, I dropped them like a bad habit.

1/02/2006 9:54 PM  
Blogger Jewboy said...

I'm thankful that we don't know each other, YG. Good job, SG. You made me proud.

1/02/2006 10:04 PM  
Blogger yeshivaguy said...

"You sound like a lot of the jerks I went out with. BH, I dropped them like a bad habit."

Or they dropped you. Or refuse to go out with you altogether. Maybe you should change some of your habits. Or advisors.

1/02/2006 10:17 PM  
Blogger yeshivaguy said...

"I'm thankful that we don't know each other, YG."

I feel the love! Love ya too, JB.

1/02/2006 10:18 PM  
Blogger ms. shtark said...

wow! the air is a bit tense here. yeshiva guy, I think what semgirl looks up to is the fact that njg was sn up to that point. that is pretty admirable. we are all human and we all err at a certain point. njg may have reached her breaking point and could not handle it any longer. she held on for pretty darn long if you ask me. that does not negate all the long years that she held herself back. it was definitely wrong what she did but FAR BE It from us to JUDGE.
ppl spend far too much time criticizing and judging each other.

1/02/2006 10:45 PM  
Blogger yeshivaguy said...

"I think what semgirl looks up to is the fact that njg was sn up to that point."

What's so wonderful about that? 99% of Lakewood girls are shomer negiah until they are married. Why isn't that inspiring? Answer: B/c SG looks at those girls as a bunch of robotic frummies, who don't know beans about anything. It's not self-control when you're programmed to be good. But of course that's nonsense. Fine frum girls who don't cuddle with random boys they meet at the mall have desires too, only they don't act upon them until they are married. There is no shortage of good role models for shemiras negiah, but a person who deliberately, with forethought, violates the issur, while documenting the whole thing on the web, is not one of them.

And this business of who are we to judge is, in my opinion, a lot of bunk. God gave us brains, and the aiblity to distinguish between right and wrong, and there's no reason not to use our God-given abilities.

1/02/2006 11:12 PM  
Blogger Semgirl said...


Whatever happened to always consider your friend to be totally righteous and yourself to be totally wicked in your eyes.

V Dan Es Col Adom L Caf Zcus..

Oh, I forgot thats right, you probably don't stay for Mussar Seder..

And how do you know, what 99% of Lakewood girls do anyway.. Are you a Novi? Do you have Ruach HaKodesh..

1/02/2006 11:56 PM  
Blogger Flatbushyid said...


I look at your posts and I wonder there is another person who writes exactly my feelings. You are 100% correct in your posts there is no excuse for breaking halacha she is no role model for someone who is truly frum. Sem girl has an underlying resentment against being told halacha she seems to know everything better I have had these arguments with her in the past and basically I decided it is a waste of time in anwsering her because she isn't changing. She is angry with many things and sorry to say she in my opinion just doesn't have a soft personality which is one the most important things in a wifes personality. I can just imagine the nagging and complaining and demanding she will from her husband. She has all these wrong pre-conceived conclusions what yeshiva bochurim are all about. She constantly quotes chazal out of text. Sorry to say she does not exemplify in my opinion a true bas yisroel. YG I am just posting so you should see you are not alone. I know it is an interesting blog here which could be constructive but at this point I don't thing it is. By the way are you single or married you sound like someone for my sister-in-law if you are single.
PS I would take a poll among readers if you had a brother would you him go out with SG. If you had a sister would you let her go out with YG please only truthfull anwsers and if possible give reasons.

1/03/2006 2:10 AM  
Blogger yeshivaguy said...

"Whatever happened to always consider your friend to be totally righteous and yourself to be totally wicked in your eyes.
V Dan Es Col Adom L Caf Zcus..
Oh, I forgot thats right, you probably don't stay for Mussar Seder..
And how do you know, what 99% of Lakewood girls do anyway.. Are you a Novi? Do you have Ruach HaKodesh.."

I never claimed I'm righteous, so the 1st quote does not apply.
L'kaf z'chus doesn't mean pretending that boasting about a sin, and detailing it in all it's mushy details ("the nape of my neck") is okay.
Re. Lakewood girls: I have quite a few Lakewood relatives, and I know what they are about. Of course no one ever knows what's going on in the pnimei pnimius of a person, but l'fi re'os ha'ayin, they are a-ok.
To Flatbush yid: I'm married with a family b"h, so I'm not available for your s-i-l. But thanks for the compliment.

1/03/2006 8:31 AM  
Blogger Y.Y. said...

thanx for your compliment i really appreciate the kind words ;)

1/03/2006 8:40 AM  
Blogger Jewboy said...

To YG and Flatbushyid: Rarely have I been as disgusted as I was while reading your comments. We already know YG hasn't the foggiest clue, so I don't need to waste too much time with him. You're an arrogant, cruel, foolish person. You don't have to approve of anyone's actions but only the One Above can judge people.Maybe take a look at Sefer Chafetz Chaim once in awhile, because you clearly haven't up till now.
Flatbushyid, get a life. what does "soft personality" mean? I'm not sure. I don't think my wife has a soft personality, and she is a great wife. Your criticisms and assumptions about SG are totally out of line. I may not necessarily approve of all her actions, but I keep that to myself. You have to try to understand where she's coming from in life. It's a good idea to try to do that with everyone you encounter. It's also not nice to try to embarrass her with your crackpot shidduch poll. I wouldn't let my wife or daughter go out with you or YG, that's for sure.

1/03/2006 9:35 AM  
Blogger ms. shtark said...

I am not condoning njg describing her act of negiah on her blog. I think the reason why she did that is because she knows it is wrong and she has a guilty conscience about it. i guess to her, if she advertises it and doesnt try to hide it, maybe that makes the forbidden act of negiah more ok. like not as taboo and she is unloading from some of the guilt. But we still can't judge. She is in her 30's and not married yet. yeshiva guy, that is really hard. I personally am only 22 and with 85% of my class married, it is sometimes hard being single in the frum world. I won't even start with all the i"yh by you's that i receive about 5 times a day and the "your are being too pickys." it is a very stressful time but don't worry i am still enjoying my independence. All those girls in lakewood that u know that are older and are sn (don't worry i am too) , that is amazing and they are role models to all, but keep in mind -al tadin es chavercha ad shetagiah limkomo.
and flatbushyid, that was an unfair poll. granted, we all have our areas that we have to work on but you cant compare ppl like that

1/03/2006 10:02 AM  
Blogger Masmida said...

First Justice then Mercy.

YG and FY are right, what SNG did is assur and should not be praised. And it has to be publicly acknowledged that it is assur.

But my personal opionon on inspriration and strength, is wherever you can get it, take it. So if SNG's inspiration works for Semgirl long enough, then why does anyone else care where it comes from?

It's very nice that you want to take a stand for the emet.

I'm sure you're familiar with Yechekel (or maybe not) that Hashem doesn't want the sinner destroyed, just the sin.

So stop attacking the sinner.

1/03/2006 10:21 AM  
Blogger Jewboy said...

Nicely said, Masmida. I'm sure many of us cannot condone SNG's act. But we must not condemn her for it either. We are not meant to judge people, only the Aibeshter can do that. Haven't all of us sinned at some point?

1/03/2006 11:07 AM  
Blogger Halfnutcase said...

i'm going to take a moment to point out here that shomer negiah halachos are at their very very worst possibly a takana from some of the earlier sages. it has litteraly no source in the 613 mitzvos of the torah, nor in the 7 rabbinic mitzvos. it was simply a wise takana made by chazal. she did no avaira whatsoever. no it was not praiseworthy, but speaking about strict halacha, there is litteraly no grounds for condemning here.

(and btw, YG or flatbushyid, if you happen to dissagree, go to a very well known rav, the kind whom people send shailos to and ask him exactly what is involved in her actions. they will tell you the exact same thing.

what is more, "Frum" only connotes the observence of shabbos, kasherus, teharas hamishpacha, and chinuch. davening b'tzibur with all that entiails is usualy includerd but not directly associated with those big four as are a number of others, tzitzis, tefilin, tznius CLOTHES (but not always) if you follow these their is no halachic grounds for discrimination. and ask a compitant rav if you dissagree, they will tell you the same thing)

1/03/2006 11:16 AM  
Blogger yeshivaguy said...

"I wouldn't let my wife or daughter go out with you or YG, that's for sure."

I don't think you should let your wife go out with anyone.

1/03/2006 11:19 AM  
Blogger yeshivaguy said...

"it has litteraly no source in the 613 mitzvos of the torah, nor in the 7 rabbinic mitzvos."

What are you hocking a cheinik about? Check your Mesillas Yeshariim for the tzad d'oraysah of all avak arayos. For heaven's sake, even histaklus has a tzad d'oraysah, kal vachomer negiah. Yes, I know, it's not the same as a sexual act, but stop pretending it's okay.

1/03/2006 11:23 AM  
Blogger yeshivaguy said...

"I personally am only 22 and with 85% of my class married, it is sometimes hard being single in the frum world. I won't even start with all the i"yh by you's that i receive about 5 times a day and the "your are being too pickys." it is a very stressful time but don't worry i am still enjoying my independence."

I empathize; I wish you all the best; your proper zivug ASAP.

1/03/2006 11:24 AM  
Blogger yeshivaguy said...

"if you follow these their is no halachic grounds for discrimination."

Who's talking about discrimination? We're discussing (a) whether it makes sense to be inspired re. shomer negiah from one who is not, and (b) whether SNG did the wrong thing by planning and posting all the details of her sin on her blog. No discrimination there.

"and ask a compitant rav if you dissagree"

I'd rather ask a competent speller.

1/03/2006 11:27 AM  
Blogger yeshivaguy said...

"I'm sure many of us cannot condone SNG's act. But we must not condemn her for it either."

I'm curious. Is there any sin - any sin at all - for which you would condemn a person?

1/03/2006 11:28 AM  
Blogger Halfnutcase said...

excuse me, i'm talking look at the major sefarim. shulchan aruch, mishah torah, the gemorah, none of them source is as an avaira. just a tekana. "who ever touches a woman in a manner of affection is punnishable with stripes" those are the words of the mishnah torah, elsewhere it is mentioned that it is nothing but an early takana, and not a well followed one either. your the one who needs to look in our ancient holy books.

not admirable, but not condemnable either, especialy by someone who has ever done anything more major wrong, as most boys have.

1/03/2006 11:39 AM  
Blogger yeshivaguy said...

"who ever touches a woman in a manner of affection is punnishable with stripes"

Hello, that's makas mardus, which is administered for a d'rabanan, which is quite enough to condemn someone for. Besides, as I told you, there's a tzad d'oraysah for all avak arayos. Besides, acc. to some Rishonim, all d'rabanans are d'oraysahs as well, b/c of lo sosur.

1/03/2006 11:47 AM  
Blogger Jewboy said...

YG: Freudian slip on my part. I meant to write "sister or daughter." And no, there is no aveirah I would condemn a person for. I would not condone it, perhaps I would disapprove of it, but I would leave the condemning up to Hashem. I think you should as well.

1/03/2006 11:49 AM  
Blogger Halfnutcase said...

i'm well awear of that, i've also compleated and understand fairly well the relevant sections of the gemorah. there is no support in the gemorah for what you proport to say, and had you studied it, and relevant comentaries, you would know that.

your condemnation is out of line, not to mention unwise. you invite upon your self a carefull accounting of your errors. tell me, are you so pure you've never suffered from, for instance the nocturnal polution? according to our sages even that befalls a person to bring them punnishment for other deeds, and is in certain ways considered to be equivelent to willfull violation of a very very severe d'orisa prohabition. would you like hashem to judge you to such a standard? that is what you invite on your self.

(and don't answer that because i don't beleive you have the honesty to relate it accurately)(not to mention if you've ever had such a dream it indicates a total lack of wisdom inside your head, for such wisdom precludes such lewd thoughts from even entering in a dream)

1/03/2006 12:05 PM  
Blogger David_on_the_Lake said...

Hmmm The last time I was here we were discussing Tchaikovsky and Vivaldi...

1/03/2006 12:08 PM  
Blogger Mata Hari said...

jewboy, hnc - regardless of whether this is considered an aveirah, takanah, misdemeanor or what have you - i have to agree with yeshivaguy that it's not something to be advertised.

1/03/2006 12:14 PM  
Blogger Jewboy said...

Perhaps, Mata Hari, perhaps. But I think her purpose in writing was therapeutic, not to advertise her actions to the world. Can't we be a little tolerant of someone who's been through a lot of emotional pain?

1/03/2006 12:24 PM  
Blogger yeshivaguy said...

"not to mention if you've ever had such a dream it indicates a total lack of wisdom inside your head, for such wisdom precludes such lewd thoughts from even entering in a dream"

Wierd stuff!

1/03/2006 12:29 PM  
Blogger yeshivaguy said...

I mean "weird stuff."

I think I've contracted misspellitis on this blog.

1/03/2006 12:32 PM  
Blogger Halfnutcase said...

torah, not weird stuff, and besides: i'm sure your also the kind of person to heckle and harass other people for using OU-D aren't you?

and yes please, lets go back to the music talk, it's so much happier.

1/03/2006 12:32 PM  
Blogger yeshivaguy said...

"And no, there is no aveirah I would condemn a person for."

How about murder? Rape? Sexual molestation of a child?

And hey, haven't you been condemning me repeatedly for committing the "sin" of condemning SNG? So there are some sins that you would condemn!

1/03/2006 12:38 PM  
Blogger yeshivaguy said...

"i'm sure your also the kind of person to heckle and harass other people for using OU-D aren't you?"

From nocturnal pollution to OU-D. How your thoughts do wander!

1/03/2006 12:41 PM  
Blogger yeshivaguy said...

"none of them source is as an avaira. just a tekana."

You're being ridiculous. Every issur d'rabanan is a takanah. Since when are we cavalier about issurei d'rabanan?

1/03/2006 12:51 PM  
Blogger Jewboy said...

Condemn the sin, not the sinner, my dear YG. You're not G-d.

1/03/2006 1:04 PM  
Blogger Flatbushyid said...


No-one has condemmend the sinner. All what is being condemmend is this attitude that there is nothing wrong in what NJG did. She herself is stating she doesn't know how her next realtionship will go. That is unacceptable. It is an averia what she did, she doesn't deserve kudos for it. For some reason people are saying it is not permitted to criticize someone who openly admitted to doing an averia and is not remoresfull about it. The first part of teshuvah is "Azivas hechet" the second part is a commitment not to do it again. There are none of those on NJG blog. All people are saying we understand you and some people are making her a role model. Ribbone shel olam, this girl was oveir an averia without any teshuvah what makes her a role model. Is someone who doesn't do an averia for twenty years, then does one a role model? Not in my religion. People are confusing rachmanos for her situation, with tolerance for averous. There is zero tolerance for averous in the Jewish religion. There is however teshuvah to be done. When someone receives mussar for doing an averia he/she is supposed to accept it not tell the person who is saying it well you are not so holy yourself. I just can't believe the views of SG where are they from? which bais yakov teaches these dayos. None that I am aware of. Which rov agrees to this? The act of touching a girl for pleasure is an ervah case closed. There are no escape clauses for 20, 30, or 40 year olds. I think every commentator that starts with well you also do averous is avoiding the point which is it was a terrible thing that NJG did and it has to be rectified through teshuvah.

halfnutcase how do you know what most yeshiva guys do?

1/03/2006 2:42 PM  
Blogger ms. shtark said...

oy yoy yoy. can we please just get on with life? I have a feeling that all u ppl are having the time of your life just heckling each other. can we please talk about something else? like anything else?

1/03/2006 3:05 PM  
Blogger Halfnutcase said...

why because i was a yeshiva bochur at one point my self. and my refrence is to the dreams, which most yeshiva bochurim do suffer from (albeit unhappily.) it goes so much to that point that chazal recognized as rare the person who does not suffer from it, and that such dreams result from an impure mind.

also most of the buchurim have other problems as well, including insufficiant respect for the diversity of torah oppinions, and also what is worse, a flawed understanding of bother arameic and hebrew grammer, syntax, and vocabulary especialy when it comes to the halachic litterature, however this isn't their fault. this is the result of the shoah killing the majority of the people who where intimately familiar with these topics. in addition a lack of kovod for the possition as a student is also rampant. many yeshiva bochurim i've met take the words in our books about taking one bath a week because that is what people do far to litteraly instead of realizing the fact that most people today take a bath daily. they therefore declare that many forms of taking care of one's self a "bitul torah"

the list goes on and on. though the most frequent sins with the yeshiva bochurim and yungerleit are sins bein adam l'chaveiro, and anger. you get lots of righteous indignation on their part, and it's not healthy and is problematic. "one who gets angry is as if he had worshipped idols"

i'm not a bais yakov girl, even though at times my commenting and posting might (pardon if i'm wrong) give the impression that i am. and while in general i don't get to the gemara as much as i would like, i am intimately familiar with halacha, aggada, and the perushim on chumash. (so much so that when i was 17 my rosh yeshiva told me to keep my mouth shut when other bochurim where incorectly giving over plain halacha, because he warned me that one who gives over more wisdom than his good deeds can support with lose said wisdom. and with that i'm going to be quiet before yg hoping to note that i do not condone what NJG did, however i do not find any reason with faulting her for what she did, and while she has still left things open, my suspicion is (from the way she wrote) that she will be shomer negiah in future relationships. but she left it open, nor does she excuse what she did as right (she has said that outright) and i think she is remorsefull most certainly, and we should wait and expect the best. only if this progresses to other problems should we even begin to suspect something bad, as a majority of people habitualy violate one takana or another, and this one was only well kept amoungst the students of torah anyway (historicaly)

1/03/2006 3:11 PM  
Blogger yeshivaguy said...

"I have a feeling that all u ppl are having the time of your life just heckling each other."

Well, yes, it is kind of fun.

1/03/2006 3:36 PM  
Blogger Semgirl said...

I wanted to answer FY when he first posted last nite, but a lil thing called sleep and life got in the way. Now I can respond to everyone.


Thank you, I haven’t laughed so much in a long time. It never ceases to amaze me how the ppl that are so Medakdik about SN and similar Halachos are so remiss in Bain Adom L’Chaveiro and Darchecha Darchei Noam.

I definitely wouldn’t want to socialize with YG, FY, or similar types and certainly not consider them potential mates, C”V.

Your lack of compassion for NJG is appalling. SHAME ON YOU… I don’t have to poll my readers , as time and time again they have voiced an opinion as to how they feel..

What is a soft personality anyway, someone that you can walk all over. I give you a Brocha that you acquire middos and and a Lev Tov.


I think I understand what you are saying. You feel that NJG is a tad bit graphic. In that regard, I would agree; in fact you will notice that I have toned down my blog considerably since the summer, when I realized that many bochurim were reading what I originally set up to be a girl’s blog.

Not that I have to answer to you, but I actually have completely SN since the beginning of Elul. This is due mostly to kind words of Chizzuk in private from Elisheva, and other friends I met thru this blog. I will be forever grateful to them for this I believe that I speak for most girls in saying that I would be pushed further away by the hostile banter from jerks like you, and others who act like similarly.

As for the Lakewood girls, I know many too. All I can say is you are very naïve. And the ones that really are SN 100% of the time, lets just say that they don’t excel in Chesed, Ahavas Yisroel, and Shmiras HaLoshen in many cases. Its an equation, we all have our weak and strong areas, even you.


Thanks for your support. I appreciate it..

Ms Shtark:

You are a Tzadeikes and don’t let anyone tell you differently.

Bruriah, I mean Masmida, couldn’t agree with you more..

1/03/2006 3:51 PM  
Blogger Jewboy said...

FY: I want to start by making one thing clear. I never condoned anything SNG did, I simply would like people to be a little tolerant. Being tolerant does not mean condoning what she did. I acknowledge that she violated halacha and she should not have, but attacking her is just not constructive. One has to be careful with tochacha these days. It can only be used very carefully and only to certain people. Many of the posters on her blog are simply trying to help her through a tough time. After all, didn't SG say she got chizuk from Elisheva in being SN? You can help someone by giving them friendly chizuk and building them up, not by tearing them dow. I speak from experience. You and YG's hurtful comments will simply make things worse for SG and SNG. Don't you realize that it's these very kind of hurtful comments that make SG unhappy with some of her community?
It is not up to you how much tolerance there is for aveiros. That is for Hashem, and Him alone, to decide. If my friend committs an aveira, should I attack and berate him or speak to him soothingly, let him know I love him, and try to help him change? Devarim binachas tehah nishmaim. And you still haven't told me what a soft personality and its benefits are.

1/03/2006 4:24 PM  
Blogger Dave J. said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

1/03/2006 4:52 PM  
Blogger Semgirl said...


For some one who seems to know how to learn, aren't you embarrassed that a girl has to tell you that it says in all Mussar Seforim that if you hurt someone's feelings or make them cry, you are Nofeil BGehennom not Yored LGehennom, meaning that you stay there. ( you really should stay for Mussar seder , the ladies you are steering at on Forest Ave will still be there at 8 ) .
If you can't give Tochacha properly DON'T..

HNC: I am so glad you (blush blush) mentioned dreams and stuff, so I don't have to.

David and MS : I still want to talk music if you do..

MHari: In theory you are right, but it is her blog, and she needs catharsis..

FY: There is zer tolerance for L Hora and hurting someone. My BY teachers would be the first to say that I should accept Mussar from an Ehlicher Yid who means Lishmoh and not some obnoxious troll on the internet. Go to BY, Bais Sheindl, or Bais Sheindl, and ask them yourself..

When are you going to do tshuva and say Publicly on NJG's blog
"I am not a Rov, but unfortunately a big Am Haaretz, but I think you may have done something wrong, However I did something far worse by publicly humiliating you, and I humbly ask you for Mehila."

1/03/2006 5:12 PM  
Blogger yeshivaguy said...

"As for the Lakewood girls, I know many too. All I can say is you are very naïve."

Not at all. I have no doubt that your friends are much like yourself. I'm talking about everyone else.

1/03/2006 5:34 PM  
Blogger yeshivaguy said...

"you really should stay for Mussar seder"

You seem to be fixated on mussar seder. Did the guy you met in the mall go to mussar seder regularly? Did you ask him?

1/03/2006 5:36 PM  
Blogger yeshivaguy said...

"You feel that NJG is a tad bit graphic."

No, that's not my problem with her. What annoys me is that she publicly planned and documented her sin. I would feel the same if she had been less graphic too.

1/03/2006 5:37 PM  
Blogger yeshivaguy said...

As the nutcase wrote, everyone sins ocassionally. But the way she publicized it was just too over the top.

1/03/2006 5:38 PM  
Blogger yeshivaguy said...

"the ladies you are steering at on Forest Ave will still be there at 8"

Was that you then?! I thought so.

And it's staring not steering. What's with the spelling here?

"I definitely wouldn’t want to socialize with YG"

Ahh, a sigh of relief.

1/03/2006 5:42 PM  
Blogger yeshivaguy said...

"However I did something far worse by publicly humiliating you"

Oh please, she publicly humiliated herself.

1/03/2006 5:44 PM  
Blogger Masmida said...

>but I actually have completely SN since the beginning of Elul.

[smile] kol ha'kovod chabebe. That's a real accomplishment.

please calm down. We've all acknowledged your point, what SNG did was assur.

i really don't want to have to repeat myself again.

Your passionate defense of SNG is admirable. But I think that you have been remis in the same fashion as YG in regards to respecting your fellow even if you disagree with him.

can everyone stop shouting, no one has said anything new for at least 20 comments.

1/03/2006 6:08 PM  
Blogger Halfnutcase said...

i want to say that i for one am very proud of you for beggining to be SN, i know just how hard it can be to switch. and i'm sure theres got to be a way to ban the troll. i don't think he'll learn.

1/03/2006 6:12 PM  
Blogger Halfnutcase said...

masmida your totaly right, and i ask of YG forgiveness for abusing him a couple of times.

i have real problems thinking of any other mitzvah when it comes to hearing/seeing/or otherwise knowing about a person being shamed/hurt/or otherwise wronged. if your going to have a flaw it's an admirable one to have, but a flaw nonetheless and your right i need to correct it.

1/03/2006 6:17 PM  
Blogger yeshivaguy said...

"YG, please calm down."

I'm calm. Just defending myself.

HNC, you're nice to apologize, but it's not necessary. I don't take this stuff personally. It's just part of the give-and-take of blog commenting. But in case you do, so sorry.

1/03/2006 6:26 PM  
Blogger yeshivaguy said...

"i'm sure theres got to be a way to ban the troll."

The administrator can ban anyone she wants. But who's the troll?

1/03/2006 6:28 PM  
Blogger Rebecca said...

The conversation here is quite interesting...before I make a judgement of my own can somebody please clarify who you are talking about and where I can read this so-called confession?

1/03/2006 7:13 PM  
Blogger Elisheva said...

Wow! Wow! Wow! Okay, I am back from my vacation, and before I get all sorts of complaints I know I owe you all e-mails, but I had to like check out my friend SG's blog first and OMG!

First of all SG I am totally humbled by what you wrote about me. I hope a little of that was true. It should be for my zechus. We can all use those.

About the whole debate here: I will admit I read very little of NJG's blog so I won't comment much on the specifics. But I will note that YG did not start off here with being upset at what she did, nor is that what SG wrote about. SG said she got chizuk from her and YG couldn't imagine getting chizuk from her. So the issue is not whether NJG did wrong, but whether it is normal to get chizuk from her.

Now someone mentioned the difference between getting chizuk from all Lakewood girls who are SN, but that it is different because they are brought up like that. YG didn't agree with that. I will comment both personally and from something I learned from someone special.

Personally I can say that I was brought up in a very yeshivish family and am considered a regular yeshivish girl. Yes the type that my friends wouldn't dream that I have internet in the first place. Call me a hypocrite or whatever, but this is my life. I believe in most of the yeshiva worldview, but have my nisyonos as I am a very curious and exposed girl.

I can say though that as much as I surely have desires like any other human, and OMG can they drive me crazy, like seeing a cute guy, reading an arousing thought etc., as much as I go crazy fantasizing about touching etc. it is not something I really can do without getting into major trouble most of the time. So although it is a major desire, in fact it is not much of a nisayon in a phisical sense.

Girls who were brought up differntly, or even if they were brought up like me but now dress, act, consider themselves not that yeshivish have a bigger nisayon because in the circles they are in today, it would not totally put them in huge trouble/jeopardise their whole identity if they would give in.

So although we like have the same desire, it is easier for me to stay away bacause of communal/family/social pressure.

That was the personal feeling. Also I was shown that the chovos halevovos (hope I don't sound too frummy here) says that busha/embarrassment was created in order to stop people from sinning. So it is a good thing not to sin because of that. He doesn't say that a person is supposed to be such a yiras shomayim that even without busha he would never sin, though obviously that is a great madrega.

The last thing is that the Vilna Gaon says that a person who has a terrible nature and fights it even a little, can be much better than someone with a great nature that puts no effort into being good. In other words even though the second guy like looks so much better, the first guy in shomayim may be considered greater.

So in short what I am saying is that though what NJG did could have been a sin, and maybe it is wrong what she discusses (again I didn't really ever have time to go through her whole blog to know for sure) it would be very normal for someone to get chizuk that someone in her situation could hold herself back as long as she did. Like even though she is like the first person and looks worse, and maybe she is worse in that she sinned, still she gets credit because she did in fact try harder and have like a way greater nisayon the the average yeshivish Lakewood girl like myself, though we may have the same desires.

Gosh, that was my bit. Sorry about spelling and stuff. Just got on and like need to e-mail ppl and do my own post (hopefully!) but like needed to comment on my friend's blog.


PS. My father is like so into classical music. I won't say I love it, but I did learn to appreciate a nice piece. It would be great to discuss that.

1/03/2006 7:25 PM  
Blogger yeshivaguy said...

"But I will note that YG did not start off here with being upset at what she did, nor is that what SG wrote about. SG said she got chizuk from her and YG couldn't imagine getting chizuk from her. So the issue is not whether NJG did wrong, but whether it is normal to get chizuk from her."

Exactly. Thanks for noticing. My critics seem to have trouble with reading comprehension.
(Although once I got into it, I did let my feelings about her be known.)

Re. being inspired by SNG, I still don't hear it, but thanks for trying to explain.

1/03/2006 8:02 PM  
Blogger Elisheva said...

OMG! I already got an e-mail from a guy who is dissapointed that I was like quoting sefarim.

FYI, although some of the guys seem to think (or like to imagine) that we girls are just all about different shades of pantyhose or styles to wear our hair, we do actually learn quite alot. Yes, I have that feminine aspect to me, but I do know a rishon from an achron and can understand things like that. I think guys need to like understand that. Maybe I don't usually show that side so it was a surprise to some.

To be honest, the reason I had all this stuff right off the bat was because I had agonized over a similar question in my personal life a while back. I had asked a guy I have quoted often who is like a fountain of Torah but with normalcy and common sense. (He is married, but it would be nice if more bachurim were like that.)

Anyway, most of the stuff he told me about, and yes, I did look them up, and I do understand them.

Shalom again

1/03/2006 8:05 PM  
Blogger Flatbushyid said...

Okay can we change the subject already, and SG tochacha is not only from a erlicher yid which was my point, if the tochacha is right it makes no difference who is giving it. You can't seem to respond to someone one without putting them down. You could have disagreeded with me without making fun of me so whatever you said about my middos look in the mirror. More important is are you having a second date? Why didn't anyone ask that question yet?

On a side note what's with the spelling here?

1/04/2006 12:08 AM  
Blogger Semgirl said...

DM Your input is appreciated, but please write in appropriate way, so as not to offend anyone here, including me..

FY.. I apologize, although Im not really sure what offended you. And I still havent seen your apology to HJG for publicly embarrassing her, you could of chastised in private email.

When blog activity is frenzied spelling goz by wayzide.

1/04/2006 8:10 AM  
Blogger Josh said...

All - I'm glad moderate voices have returned. I know we almost lost sight of the original post for awhile (thanks FY for reminding us), but remember the title - Something Positive(emphasis mine)? I'm not sure how that evolved into an attack, deserved or not. But to echo FY's question, so, nu, what happened with Positive boy? Is Pachebel playing in the background?

1/04/2006 9:38 AM  
Blogger Eshet Chayil said...

wow...comments sure built up here...SG, you've been tagged on my page.

1/04/2006 1:05 PM  
Blogger RBR said...

Not to be the wet blanket here, but i find it a little disturbing that you are all discussing this person's faults so openly here. I challenge evryone here to look at their faults, and think if you would like them discussed like this. Granted she put it on her blog, but I don't think it was her intent for it to be disected like this.

1/04/2006 1:36 PM  
Blogger Semgirl said...

I wholehartedly agree with you RBR. I just mentioned her in passing on my post, to show appreciation for her blog. Regardless, of everything, I find her to be a tremendous inspiration. In fact, Shev explained that much better than I could.

Then somehow, it spiraled out of control. Thanks for pointing that out.

Like Josh said, lets keep this positive..

1/04/2006 2:22 PM  
Blogger yeshivaguy said...

"Granted she put it on her blog, but I don't think it was her intent for it to be disected like this."

She's been doing a blow-by-blow on her blog for months, answering comments etc. That's about as public as you can get.

1/04/2006 3:09 PM  
Blogger Mata Hari said...

I believe that this is the concept of avak lashon harah - where you're not supposed to speak about someone even in a positive way, because it may lead the other person to say something negative.

1/04/2006 3:13 PM  
Blogger Mata Hari said...

yeshivaguy - sounds to me like you're a frustrated writer (or a future lawyer) and you would do well to start a blog of your own :)
btw - you don't sound like you're 22.

1/04/2006 3:33 PM  
Blogger Halfnutcase said...

yeshiva guy, please drop it.

now on the other hand we want to echo the request to know if anything more has developed with the date.

1/04/2006 3:58 PM  
Blogger Chana said...

I also love Tchaikovsky! :) And various other Russian classical composers/ Russian writers-literature. :) Indoor waterfalls sound beautiful. Huzzah!

1/04/2006 4:23 PM  
Blogger David_on_the_Lake said...

Me too! I'm in love with Russian culture..
Tchaikovsky, Rimsky Korsikov, Stravinsky, Tolstoy, Dostoyevsky..and my favorite Chekhov..

1/04/2006 4:55 PM  
Blogger Elster said...

On one point I do believe I agree with Yeshivahguy - You cannot argue that NJG did not expect her comments to be dissected like this. Every one of her posts gets well over 100 comments of people doing just that.

THAT BEING SAID - People tend to assume that the issue of being "over" on negiah is worse than other sins, when in fact we have no basis of knowing which aveiros hashem judges to be worse than others. Yes, the torah does but a premium on sexual behavior, but let's all get off of our moral high horses and remember that no 21 year old kid (male or female) or no married person of ant age has the right to judge NJG. You may disgree with her blog or her actions, but you cannot judge her. I for one will readily admit that it i was 35 and single there would be a very good chance I would not be shomer negiah. I think if we all look deeply withion ourselves, we would admit the same thing.

1/04/2006 5:05 PM  
Blogger Halfnutcase said...

Tchaikovsky's dance of the suger plum fairies is a favorite of mind, its so bouncy, and it always can bring a smile.

(i don't attach names very well to the music, just like i don't remember people names either... so to comment on particular peices i'd have to listen to it first so i don't forget who wrote it. and yes i had to find copy someone elses spelling of the composer in order to get it right)

1/04/2006 6:33 PM  
Blogger Semgirl said...

When I was little I read the bios of all the composers. I loved Beethoven's Fifth, Chopin, Strauss Waltzes.. And my absolute favorite was always Mozart.

Especially after seeing Amadeus in the hotel one Chol HaMoed..That is one DVD, I would definitely want to own..

1/04/2006 7:25 PM  
Blogger Halfnutcase said...

we have and old tape of it somewhere. if i understand correctly it's based on the history, as the court musician ends up working mozart to death, recounting his jealousy and anger at this young upstart who usurped his favor with the king of austria (i think) i LOVED that movie.

mozart is also a favorite of mine (i'm not sure if he's my alltime favorite, but he is one of the few composers that i can recognize the style of his work.

1/04/2006 7:42 PM  
Blogger David_on_the_Lake said...

I've seen Amadeus 6
Great..Great movie..really gets into his wild mind.

1/04/2006 8:45 PM  
Blogger Eshet Chayil said...

SG, someone I know asked me to post this for you. you being sn from elul the folowing "chzak vamatz, hashem loves u & we do too" Signed, your cheering squad.

1/05/2006 2:13 PM  
Blogger yeshivaguy said...

"btw - you don't sound like you're 22."

I'm not.

1/05/2006 5:42 PM  
Blogger Mata Hari said...

yg - i thought you said you were in one of the comments, but i very well may have lost track

1/05/2006 7:07 PM  
Blogger bmgbochur said...

i really enjoy all your posts and ur blogs online- you defnitly bring out a very bright part of lakewood- eventhough the other parts of lakewood are good as well.

1/05/2006 11:16 PM  
Blogger Semgirl said...

bmg: thanks .. so did the advice I gave you help .. you can let me know privately if you want.

1/05/2006 11:27 PM  
Blogger bmgbochur said...

ill shoot you off an email, but the date went great- just didnt get another one... wtvr is basheret will happen at the right time.
iyh by you soon:)
btw not to be pushy but you never answered or spoke about if you got another date-- we are all curious!!

1/05/2006 11:33 PM  
Blogger turquoiseblue said...

Hi SG - I turned into a lurker (albeit a proud one! Cheering you on... keep it up!!!)

Great to hear your date went wonderful - it's a powerful feeling to "want" to hold hands - and as another commenter wrote, its a definite sign of "chemistry"...

I barely have time to read blogs (Which were my minimum!) but whenever I do get a minute - I will check back here for an update!

My very best wishes to you!

1/06/2006 2:00 AM  
Blogger bmgbochur said...

I have a quick question to ask and i want to know if anyone can help me.
Why is it that if one learns in bmg he is stereotyped as being a ultra yeshivsh grease ball? There are quite aclot of ppl out their that are normal? Would a girl want to be stereotyped for going to bjj, hadar, bnos chava, bya, sharfmans etc.??? there are different types of girls in every seminary, and so in every yeshiva as well.
So don’t turn down a shidduch when you hear the guys learning in BMG- I wouldn’t turn down a girl based on her sem.

1/06/2006 1:45 PM  
Blogger Flatbushyid said...


Sorry don't know where you get your information from but bmg bocher means nothing it is a collection of bochurim from every yeshiva. On the contrary to me it is a negative I want to know where the person learned before i.e. Passiac, Philly, etc. Those yeshivas get sterotyped not bmg. Just go in the lunchroom every yeshiva has their own table and chas vashalom to sit by a different yeshiva's table. I remember my first day there many years ago when I sat down by the wrong table believe I never made that mistake again. Anyway Good Shabbos to all.

1/06/2006 2:45 PM  
Blogger bmgbochur said...

flatbush yid:
"On the contrary to me it is a negative"
u c that u r sterotyping a guy ho learnt in lkwd. why? i thought they have so many diffrent type of guys?
also about feeling so uncmftorable- i hardly eat in yeshiva- buy ur overdooiung it. they just wont say a word to u- kinda snot u out- but they wont yell or scream at you and call u a ganev like in the mir first shift--- talk about middos

good shabbos evry1

1/06/2006 4:31 PM  
Blogger Flatbushyid said...


Can you explain your comment that someone learning in bmg is stereotyped as a greasball, by whom? I never heard of such a thing. You also missed my whole point there is no such thing as a bmg bocher. Where did you learn before? Your upbringing wasn't in bmg you learned your whole life somewhere else. Why are you in bmg what was wrong with your yeshiva till now? I look up to bochurim not learning in bmg that means to me they are more serious. Can you also please spell out your words. By the way licht bentching was 4:25 you have nothing better to do 12 minutes before shkia then to blog? Who do you think was going to read your comments then? Something ain't right here.

1/07/2006 11:24 PM  
Blogger yeshivaguy said...

"By the way licht bentching was 4:25 you have nothing better to do 12 minutes before shkia then to blog?"

I'd assume that bmgbochur was ready for Shabbos nice and early and therefore had plenty of time to blog. What are you giving him a hard time about?

1/08/2006 12:49 AM  
Blogger bmgbochur said...

yeshiva guy:
thanks for sticking up for me. yes i was ready for shabbos and shul where i daven starts 10 minutes before shkia and yes i was ontime.
so flatbush yid, u dont have to be on the attack mode.
y i was online??? i had to send an email to someone in israel and decided to post a blog then.
about sterotyping- the reason i am in lakewood, is because i learnt in israel previsuly and didnt really have an option to return to my old yeshiva. lakewood was chosen over other yeshivas becasue while im in yeshiva id like to learn and not be depressed like what i hear about guys in other yeshivas.
"look up to guys in other yeshiva" yes i do too. i think there are lots of shtark guys out there. but which yeshivas are u reffering to?? i know a few but not too many other then bmg that have guys that sit themselfs down to learn and do nothing else.

good night..

1/08/2006 1:28 AM  
Blogger bmgbochur said...

flatbush yid:
also where in halacha does it say a guy- or girl for that matter cant do any melocha 12 minutes before shkia--- according to some shitas one can even do melocha after shkia till i think either 50 or 60 min after shkia...

1/08/2006 1:30 AM  
Blogger Semgirl said...

Well in any event I appreciate being the last thought on BMG's mind before Shabbos.

I don't go to shul and Im all alone until my father and brothers come home, so I do check comments and stuff like 5 minutes before Shabbos,

As for why he is in BMG, probably to network for Shidduchim. I am going out now with someone who learns in a small yeshiva in Monsey, cant say which, and he says that he always has to call Shadchanim, because outside of Lwood they dont know you exist.

1/08/2006 8:39 AM  
Blogger yeshivaguy said...

"I don't go to shul and Im all alone until my father and brothers come home,"

And your mother is where?

Silly question. Lying down, of course!

1/08/2006 9:29 AM  
Blogger bmgbochur said...

thanks again for sticking up for me. ok i do go to shul, and havent missed davening with a minyan in yrs:)
u got bmg right to the point- the only reason i am there is for networking purposes (though my mother says 'i dont need those networks' but thats for another story. if not for the networking reasons i would have been in a smaller yeshiva, yes maybe in monsye, elkizabeth or in korbman's. i doubt lkwd.
i wish u lots of luck with the guy ur going out with that learns in a small yeshiva in monsey!!! i wonder which one!!!

1/08/2006 9:45 AM  
Blogger Flatbushyid said...


Again I ask you said there are stereotyping bmg bochurim as greasballs can you tell me where I don't think I ever heard that. I think you are in dream land. Can you tell me which yeshiva you learned before Lakewood? No-one said you can't do melacha just I would think (hope) people have something better to do 12 minutes before shabbos then to blog even if you are ready for shabbos. I guess mincha you all ready davened because most shuls are doing that then.

1/08/2006 10:02 AM  
Blogger yeshivaguy said...

"Well in any event I appreciate being the last thought on BMG's mind before Shabbos."

Hmm, I sense something promising here. SG, if the present thing doesn't work out, why not give BMGB a chance? Will you be needing a shadchan?

1/08/2006 10:30 AM  
Blogger bmgbochur said...

yeshiva guy:
thanks a million for reding it- if it works out I guess maybe u'll get shadchanas.. not.
I don't know if ur married or engaged but its much more then blogs... sorry, it possible its worth a chance. but I doubt it
(semgirl: nothing personal but I was sn my whole life so I prob would want a girl the same, also when I was in israel I stayed in yerushlaim in yshva not in dunzegraft.. but I may know some guys for u.)
flatbush yid: I never meant greeseball in such a way. what I mean is ppl look at lkwd as a place that guys never go to work, but instaed milk out their in laws for money. that's not true.
but why is it whén I told ppl I was going to lakewood they all told me lakewood with a big frown. I didn't get even one good comment. for me it was hard. they all told me go to waterberry, chaim berlin, torah vdas, ner yisrael etc.. I guess there may be a reason for that.
also why do girls some times say when ur intrested in them that "im not inrtrested in a lakewood bochur"? maybe u can answer that. again I think its worng for them to say that.

1/08/2006 3:11 PM  
Blogger Flatbushyid said...


The reason they frown is because Lakewood is only a way station. When I was there 20 years ago it was a sick place and I don't think it got better. Unfortunately there is really no other yeshiva (except for a few bochurim)for someone of marriageable age. That was why I had to be there. I am very curious where did you learn before or will that lead to people figuring out who you are?
PS Almost time for second seder.

1/08/2006 3:44 PM  
Blogger Limey2001 said...

When the time comes iy"h walk down to Pachelbels Canon
Best piece out there
(my chavrusa did... violins and all a fairy tale wedding)

1/08/2006 5:08 PM  
Blogger yeshivaguy said...

Ah well, I tried to do my part to alleviate the shidduch crisis. What can I do if the parties won't cooperate?

1/08/2006 5:50 PM  
Blogger Semgirl said...

"when I was in israel I stayed in yerushlaim in yshva not in dunzegraft. "

What is dunzegraft.

No, you dont seem like the right boy for me.. Not that SN isn't important.. But I kind of have my heart set on someone who is more concerned with Shmiras HaLoshon, Chesed, Never hurting another Yid's feelings..

You seem way too obsessed with superficial stuff..

And let me guess you want a girl who is a size 4..

1/08/2006 6:13 PM  
Blogger Jewboy said...

There are a few other yeshivos for someone of marriagable age. I went to one myself.

1/08/2006 6:54 PM  
Blogger bmgbochur said...

I'm sorry if I insulted u. I never meant at all to do such a thing. I guess I should have not wrote what I did. I guess someone pushing me to go out with u raitzed it on (wonder who?) but I respect you. and from reading your posts I do think that you are a wonderful girl and that what one did before should not haunt you.
I'm sorry. (and I'm serius.)
I wish u lots of luck that it works out with the guy your dating.
about obsessed with superfical things. I'm not. beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. I never ask before going out if the girl is a size 2 or 4. it doesn't make a diffrence. beauty is something from within. (i won't say ill wanna go oyt with a girl who is size 10) but it all depends how the date goes. not her size.
sorry again. (if u want u can remove my previus post).

1/08/2006 6:56 PM  
Blogger Mata Hari said...

bmg - please - the spelling!
i'm sure you shteig in learning, but you live in America - at least run it through spellcheck

1/08/2006 8:33 PM  
Blogger Semgirl said...

Ok, I accept your apolgy.. From all your posts you seem like a very decent guy, but really. From what I understand Loshon Hara is 28 lovim , I think 8 Asehs, and worse then the big 3 combined. Embarrassing someone is worse..

Negiah, according to some is ONE Drobonim. Stay for Mussar Seder you might learn something.

1/08/2006 9:22 PM  
Blogger yeshivaguy said...

"I guess someone pushing me to go out with u raitzed it on (wonder who?)"

Hey, don't blame me. I just suggested a shidduch. I don't see how that compelled you to start ranting and raving about shomer negia and dizengoff. You could have just said no, or ignored the suggestion altogether.

"Stay for Mussar Seder you might learn something."

Veiter with mussar seder. It seems to be something of an obsession with you.

To be honest, the best guys are often the ones who don't make such an issue about mussar seder. Honest.

1/08/2006 11:28 PM  
Blogger bmgbochur said...

ok semgirl is into mussar, but there is nothing wrong with that. mussar shows a person the way to live a life, and how to deal with people (and not make mistakes like I made before)
about raitzing me on, I guess I was playing the blame game, u didn't cause me to write anything, and yes I could have written much easier "im not intrested.." I didn't have to go into any details. ill ble neder learn from the mistakes, and yes try to learn some more mussar.
have a great night everyone out there.

1/08/2006 11:43 PM  
Blogger yeshivaguy said...

bmgbochur, you seem like a nice guy, but you apologize too much. Stand your ground!

1/09/2006 12:01 AM  
Blogger bmgbochur said...

yeshiva guy:
"you apolgize a bit too much. keep your ground"
I have a bit of news for you- ur 22 and u wrote before most of your class is married... and you are wondering why semgirl is obssesed with mussar. maybe if you learn a bit of it you'll understand. I don't mean to be mean at all, but in life one must realize mistakes that are made and apologize. and a bit news for you. when iyh you get married, please learn to say I'm sorry even If its not your fault. you'll never gain anything by sticking to your guns. (besides a nice fee for a divorce lawyer, and all the bet din charges).
learn to be nice. it won't kill you. (at least it won't kill me- I hope not) and yes by being nice you might get burnt once in a while but that's life...
gnite everyone.

1/09/2006 12:33 AM  
Blogger yeshivaguy said...

You're mixing me up with someone else. I'm long past 22 and I'm married with a family. As for the rest of the post, I can only say ... whatever.

1/09/2006 12:41 AM  
Blogger bmgbochur said...

yg: sorry I guess I mixed you up with someone else.. to much blog reading. anyways I think its a good middah for you to get used to saying I'm sorry- for sure when you're wrong- your wife will be much happier (i never said she wasn't). and buy her things every once in a while- even a small little chocolate can make a big diffrence, it shows her that someone cares. (again yg: I never said you dont).
gnite. enough blogging for now.

1/09/2006 12:54 AM  
Blogger yeshivaguy said...

"sorry I guess I mixed you up with someone else"

Stop saying sorry, dammit! It doesn't matter if you mixed me up with someone else; it's fine.

And look, about the marital advice, first get married. After a few years you can start dispensing advice (although at that point, you may not be that eager to do so). It'll be a lot more authoritative then.

1/09/2006 2:05 AM  
Blogger Datingmaster, Jerusalem said...

Hi semgirl I was exactly like youI enjoy your postss but you should know after maariage a lot of things change-for example the wedding night is not fun at all-it can be unpleasant

1/09/2006 3:11 AM  
Blogger Semgirl said...

DM.. G Morning to you too... Thanks for always being the ray of sunshine here.

1/09/2006 6:01 AM  
Blogger Eshet Chayil said...

lol sg at least it's not like he comments on mine. Looks like you have the boys fighting on your blog. :P

1/09/2006 10:51 AM  
Blogger Mata Hari said...

eshet chayil - if you ask him not to, he won't

1/09/2006 11:37 AM  
Blogger ms. shtark said...

wow, have been like totally out of the picture here for a while. BMG bachur,you sound like totally confused. Why don't you go to Waterbury or one of those yeshivos? You also mentioned torah v'daas and Chaim Berlin. I am a girl (no duh) and even I know those three yeshivos are totally different from each other. Why are you in lakewood? Are you the strictly learning type? Those other yeshivos that you mentioned are into college to a degree.
I must agree with you that ppl do stereotype lakewood a drop. but really it is not true. I just find that dating wise, it is a bit less frivolous than these other places. I found that bmg guys generally do the lounge thing more and more fun dates are sometimes a bit more contrived and stilted. it is a certain mahalach. i guess i sound a bit funcused. I definitely think I am. I think what we have to do first is know OURSELVES and what we are looking for in life and then we can start looking for a marriage partner.
p.s. yes you sort of can stereotype a girl base on seminary. like please, how can you compare a hadar girl to a sharfmans girl. i am friends with both types and whew.... they are different!!! g'luck in all your future endeavors

1/09/2006 12:56 PM  
Blogger bmgbochur said...

first guys don't fight. we voice our opinions;-)

ms. shtark:
when I wrote all 3 of the yeshiva's I knew that they are all diffrent. I know what waterbery is and what torah vdas and chaim berlin is. I know guys in all those yeshivas and u usually can tell. I can say that guys a waterbury type. yes I sometimes to sterotype. (kinda a hipocrate) but only to give an idea. I know some guys from torah vdas that are much shtarker then guys in lakewood. I know guys in chaim berlin the same. I know guys in lkwd that are bigger bums then guys in other places.
and the reason I choses lkwd, even though my parents didn't want me to, is because I decided that I want to learn seriusly before I get married. that u have so many guys learning that u are going to learn automaticly. I'm a bigger fan of mir yerushlayim and wish I would be there now. if they would have a mir type yeshiva in the us, I woudl be there without a question. however there are not.
I am not as yeshivish as all my freinds but I am a very frum guy and keep to all the rules of the book. and I picked lakewood cause lots of guys I know are here.
would I fit in to torah vdas or chaim berlin, yes with a blink of an eye, waterbury don't know about but possibly.
what I'm saying is everything is interchangeable.
about girls sems yes sharfmans is diffrent then hadar. HECK YEA u won't have a sharfam girl in hadar, no way. but I have met throughout my time girls from almost every sem. yes hadar bjj, syarfman, bnos chava, seminar, darchai binah. michlala, mesoros, and a million others. yes lots of them are diffrent from each other. but a half a yr out of sem, they all average out. ok hadar will still stay frummer, but you get my point.
the way a freind told me: "a bnos chava girl can be in darchai binah not vice versa" the quote may not be so true. but the idea is.
some girls even is sems that are known to hang out with guys, not everyone hangs out. I know that for a fact. a girl who went to sharfmans won't be ruled out in a second for that. as well as other sems.

1/09/2006 3:24 PM  
Blogger bmgbochur said...

sorry I got cut out of space.

about the lobby thing, I do think it is boring and crazy. and a guy from waterbury may go somewhere else for a first date.
but by regular yeshish guys that never saw or spoke to a girl before its pretty hard to go play pool or bowl with her, or go to a game, the girl will freak apout as well as the guy.
I do think that lobbies are very boring, and they drive me nuts. just sittint talking and drinking ur coke while she's sipping her diet coke.
I prefer to go to dinner even for a first date, that is if the girl doesn't mind. this way everyone gets so much more comftorable with each other, more then a lobby. (its a little less comfee then espn zone) but u get the pic.
another reason for the lobby thing is. the date is so expensive for the guy. forget about the clothing cleaner etc.
car $50.00 tolls to brooklyn $20 gas $25.00 tolls from bklyn to nyc 10.00 then parking $45. plus $20.00 on drinks in the lobby. its expensive, so most guys just don't wana spend another $80 on dinner.
I know its not so easy for a girl either, she has to do her hair, then go for a manicure (ok not everyone) but the guys also have to drive 2 hours to bklyn then after the date 2 hrs back thinking about how good or bad it went...

have a great day everyone..

1/09/2006 3:33 PM  
Blogger ms. shtark said...

all i can say bmg bachur is that i sort of agree with you on most points. BUT, i have gone out with a waterbury (not waterbery) boy and our first date, we DID go to a lounge so hah!!! sorry, i couldn't resist. and yeah, it is expensive but i don't know that's life. i actually always feel really bad for the boy (or maybe his parents)in that sense. Most of the times that i have gone out to eat, the boy pigged out and enjoyed dad's master card - i am not being cynical. trust me, the girl feels much more comfortable if the guy orders alot and not just soup after i order a whole tuna sandwich - man that was uncomfortable! going places and being comfortable with a person also depends on chemistry but you are right that a "typical" lakewood boy would be less chilled out in such a setting (sorry for stereotyping)
and yes i am confused about what i want but that is because i want to start of my marriage for a few years with someone learning because it makes such a difference but i don't want a grease ball at all so it makes it really hard to find the right mix. as ppl are beginning to tell me, maybe i am being too picky

1/09/2006 8:01 PM  
Blogger Semgirl said...

Ok, lets compare exprenses.. This is going to sound like a C Card com’l sorry, guys..

Shoes, not always but often enough..40$ and up

Hosiery Plus 20$ …I can get by with Shop rite , el Cheapo on a day to day basis, but for dayes you need the good stuff , Berkshire at 9$ a pair, its very embarrassing to get a run on a date.

Outfits, especially if you go out five or six times and need new things all the time .. 100$ and up by Nordstroms, Macys or a Heimishe place in town, that usually doesn’t have my size

Cosmetics 20 $ (eyeliner, shadow, rouge, foundation, lipsick, mascara , powder)

Perfume it varies , and the good stuff lasts a long time, but it still is expensive

Supercuts or the really expensive place in Howell, but they give a quality haircut, eyebrow waxing, and facial, and linen wraps .

This is in addition to, for example on my last few dates I had to drive from Lakewood to Monsey, and pay gas, tolls, and nosh for the way..

Then after all that, its 100$ or more for the Gym or Spa or just a nice treat for myself when I get dumped or have to say no to the boy, and I am all depressed ..

1/09/2006 9:34 PM  
Blogger ms. shtark said...

Semgirl, you are hilarious! But you know that you are exaggerating!!! ha. i agree with you about shoes. 40 is CHEAP for shoes. don't feel comfortable discussing the hosiery part. yeah, you need outfits but i hope you don't buy every outfit only with dates on mind. first two dates, usually more formal so you wear nice shabbos stuff and then nicer weekday for the rest. u can be practical and get stuff that you can use for dating and beyond. manicures, u get neways b.c they look good but even then u don't have to have one for every date. a good perfume is worth having wether you are dating or not. try marc jacobs.
and after being dumped, yeah that can get a bit touchy. i usually head out to shop and my mother fully sympathizes. after my last major heartbreak, i went and bought a suit, nice sweater and STUFF. ok, now i know about the boy's expenses because i have older brothers and semgirl, that can get expensive.. uh.... TIES and shoes and drycleaning bills, cologne... the suits are pretty $$$$ too it could get pricey! so let us see it from both sides!

1/09/2006 10:17 PM  
Blogger bmgbochur said...

I understand maybe not fully but at least a little, how much it can cost for the girl (sigh) how much girlie needs cost, do u want me to get into what the guys need? a pair of boxers that are comftorable, you don't wana fix ur boxers on a date- trust me- we need shoes. socks yes guys socks they are so little but still can be $8 a pair, and shoes for a guy- normal nice not prada, or faragamos, can be $150.00 and u need diffrent shoes, ties usually run for a nice one anywhere between 40-100 and u can't wear ur tie twice.
a little note that is sad but very nice. I was told that there is a gmach in lakewood called TAT stands for Tomchai Torah that raises funds from donations and from profits from the soda machines, that they give money to guys to enable them to date, and take out the girl to eat. not everyone has an extra $25 I've seen people debate on buying a soda for 50 cents, which ill then take out a dollar and say buy a soda and keep the change.
the last girl I went out with during my dating expedition I spent way over $300 on dinners, and about $100 on parking and on gas tolls and car rentals anothe 300 and it was local dating. (i wish I would have at least flown to la, or flordia) b'h my father is comftorable, and he says don't blink an eye, if u can't find a spot on the street just go to a garage don't worry about the petty money (i guess he just wants me married and off his paycheck-lol)
ms shtark:
btw girls have a natural tendency to go shopping when they are depressed. its normal. I know it first hand. when my mom or sis are upset wow- do u see what they buy!!!
ur not picky- there is a guy for every girl- it is good to want to start your marriage by learing u set the right pace. and u can have a guy learning n still not be a grease ball.
I personally know a lot of ppl, that were 21-23 that were working and got married, then took off a yr or 2 of work to go to israel to learn. what a nice thing:)

1/10/2006 2:30 AM  
Blogger bmgbochur said...

one last q:
why did u have to shlep to monsey for a date? doesn't the guy pick u up? ur so nice if the reason is u didn't want to be mivatel him from learning- but I doubt that was the reason.
did u drive him to westchester also? or did he take over? just wondering.
I heard of an la girl flying to new york to go out- the first a lakewood girl to go to monsey- always a first.
good luck anyways...

and everyone fast well.

1/10/2006 2:34 AM  
Blogger Halfnutcase said...

first, you can wear the same suit to successive dates, all you have to do is take care of it.
ditto for a tie, socks, shirts, and everything else you were.

shoes should last you ten years if you take decent care of them, (i know mine are like 3 years old and still look quite good with regular polishing)
also if you know where to shop you can get excelent ties for decent prices (about 14 dollars)

and why make the bochurim paupers with the expensive dates? i mean i understand going someplace nice, but that seems WAY much...

and on second thought i better figure out how to do a nice, respectfull shidduch date quickly. (oi all the things i have to do)

sigh, but i guess it's nothing compared to the compatition with the chassunahs, this person has a really opulent chassunah, this person doesn't want to be out done so they spend twice what they can afford to make a really oppulent chassuna to beat his buddy, this couple (or their family) is put in to poverty by trying to compete with the other two...

personaly i think they should make the chassunas small and if they really want to honor their children donate part of the rest to charity to bless the couple, and the the rest of that to the couple so that they can really esstablish their home in good standing.

i mean really all this gaivah about the weddings, it's not honoring the children, it's teaching them entirely the WRONG lessons and putting your self in debt to do it.

1/10/2006 6:59 PM  
Blogger Halfnutcase said...

and i just wanna point out, i can fully understand the alure of wanting to have that perfect chassunah, because i've spent countless hours planning up pretend chassunahs too. just i don't like the idea of trying to out do everyone else it's a non-jewish attitude, not ours.

1/10/2006 7:02 PM  
Blogger yeshivaguy said...

"shoes should last you ten years if you take decent care of them,"

Yes, and a toothbrush can last for at least fifteen years if you take good care of it and don't use it too much, but still, you ought to get a new one after a few months.

1/10/2006 7:23 PM  
Blogger bmgbochur said...

I realize ur joking so. why even answer, but if u wanna get a second date I doubt a $15 tie, will do it, lol.
shoes if it lasts a yr in a half ur lucky, but as a good rule, don't wear on a date shoes that are more then 8 months old, u know good and well how they look.
about chasuna's I'm with u. why make such a big wedding make it small and give the chosson the money- he's tzedoka also!!!
in my earlier post I don't mean to say that guys shouldn't spend money on a date. the way I put it, the way whatever u spend on shabbos u get paid back, whta u spend on a date u also do. not exactly the same, but that's my take.

semgirl: I started my blog. ur chizuk helped me do it- we'll see how long it lasts for but ill try to update it when I have a chance. (i can send a sms msg to my blog so sometimes it will be short)

1/10/2006 7:54 PM  
Blogger Parsha Potpourri said...

BMGBochur - while everybody is micro-analyzing your budget for a date, I want to know why in the world it takes you 2 hours to get to/from Brooklyn?

1/10/2006 8:16 PM  
Blogger Parsha Potpourri said...

And once I'm posting, I think I'll claim the right to the first-ever 200th post on Semgirl's blog. Move over Elisheva :)

1/10/2006 8:16 PM  

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