Something Positive
I think its time for a positive topic for a change. After a long, dryspell I finally went on a date last week.
We went to a very posh, luxurious lounge in a prominent Westchester hotel. It was actually quite cozy, sitting in the comfy overstuffed armchairs, in one of the smaller conference rooms. Although, I definitely felt that with the subdued lighting, lavender carpets, plush ebony couchs, hearthstone roaring fireplace, it was really a tad bit too romantic for a first date. Fortunately, BH I felt so comfortable and there was so much chemistry, for a change that it wasnt so bad.
The conversation was actually pretty intersting. Different things that are going on in Lakewood, like the new Hockey Stadium proposal. Yeshivish polotics is always so amusing. But I really had to bite my lip when the subject of Internet came up. Although, as a rule, Monsey boys tend to be more chilled out.
We also spoke about music, art, books, food and other stuff. All in all, it made for very stimulating conversation. I really enjoyed the indoor waterfalls, and gorgeous flower gardens. When we walked around the grounds outside, it was so conducive to amorous activity, I desperately wanted to at least hold hands, but BH I was good for a change and managed to do the whole Shmer Negia trip..
That is clearly due in part to a wonderful role model that I really look up to . I feel terrible that things didnt work out for her recently. B'ezras Hashem they will in the near future. I also want to thank my best friend, for her constant Chizuk, as well as, other friends. You know who you are...
The night was not without some adventure, when he took a wrong turn and we got totally lost and ended up in the Bronx, in the middle of the night.
However, I just love Bach, Beethoven, Tscaikovsky and the smell of Polo or Aramis. That along with wavy brown hair, a radiant smile, and a very robust physique really melts me.
All in all, it was a wonderful date..
Obviously, I have changed many details around to preserve anonymity..
We went to a very posh, luxurious lounge in a prominent Westchester hotel. It was actually quite cozy, sitting in the comfy overstuffed armchairs, in one of the smaller conference rooms. Although, I definitely felt that with the subdued lighting, lavender carpets, plush ebony couchs, hearthstone roaring fireplace, it was really a tad bit too romantic for a first date. Fortunately, BH I felt so comfortable and there was so much chemistry, for a change that it wasnt so bad.
The conversation was actually pretty intersting. Different things that are going on in Lakewood, like the new Hockey Stadium proposal. Yeshivish polotics is always so amusing. But I really had to bite my lip when the subject of Internet came up. Although, as a rule, Monsey boys tend to be more chilled out.
We also spoke about music, art, books, food and other stuff. All in all, it made for very stimulating conversation. I really enjoyed the indoor waterfalls, and gorgeous flower gardens. When we walked around the grounds outside, it was so conducive to amorous activity, I desperately wanted to at least hold hands, but BH I was good for a change and managed to do the whole Shmer Negia trip..
That is clearly due in part to a wonderful role model that I really look up to . I feel terrible that things didnt work out for her recently. B'ezras Hashem they will in the near future. I also want to thank my best friend, for her constant Chizuk, as well as, other friends. You know who you are...
The night was not without some adventure, when he took a wrong turn and we got totally lost and ended up in the Bronx, in the middle of the night.
However, I just love Bach, Beethoven, Tscaikovsky and the smell of Polo or Aramis. That along with wavy brown hair, a radiant smile, and a very robust physique really melts me.
All in all, it was a wonderful date..
Obviously, I have changed many details around to preserve anonymity..
posted by SemGirl | Wednesday, December 28, 2005
209 Comments:
SG - Sounds great! Best of luck and keep us posted! The merit of staying SN should help you find the right one quickly!
I'm just curious as a guy - I assume this was a BMG or at least yeshivishe guy given your prior descriptions of the boys your father lets you go out with. Do you as a girl assume that even with an amourous atmosphere as you described it (unless that was one of the changed details :), the average yeshivishe guy would be interested in holding hands? How can you gauge? And you're not afraid that it would actually turn him off, get back to your parents via the shadchan, etc?
PP ...Duh , I said I thought, had the desire to.. Obviously I WOULDN'T. Im not suicidal..
pragmatic are we? :-D
sounds good, hope you get another date. and furthermore i hope that there aren't any skelletons in his closet. (of any kind)
good luck!
(and if he's not the right one, then i hope he screws up big time to show it to you.)
is the classical music something you do in rebelion or do they condone it?
(you wouldn't believe the kinds of things most of that music was origionaly written for either, there is a reason that they called betoven's period the romantic period.) (classical music is a favorite for me)
semgirl
lots of luck to you i hope it works out for the best
very robust physique
For your sake, hopefully that wasn't one of the things you changed for anonymity!
Actually, SG, when you said that NJG's blog had an impact on you in such a practical sense, I found that really touching. I know we come from different worlds, and I tease you (probably too often) about your amorous escapades, but I think that learning from other's experiences is what blogging is all about. I find NJG inspiring as well, in how she demonstrates everyone's own control over their decisions.
I'm glad you finally got a date that was your speed, and I hope to hear more, about him or others, in the future. Feel free to ask us for advice - we want to feel like best-friends, not just voyuers...
"That is clearly due in part to a wonderful role model that I really look up to ."
You are shomer negiah b/c of a woman who is not shomer negiah?
Thank you, YY.. and I apreciate that you act like a mench on my blog..
Josh that is such a sweet thing to say..
YG that is really mean and vicious, how old were you when got married..
you just made a "lounge date" sound extremely glamorous and fun. hope the next date's even better. good luck.
Okay, I'm late. I have been like AWOL recently and I apologize.
Thanx for the nice mention. You are too kind SemGirl. I am sorry for my spotty appearances. I have been basically just logging on, doing e-mail, and logging off. No major reason, but this is how it has been lately. For reasons of privacy, it is best kept at that.
BTW, loads of people ask me how to keep your anonymity while you blog. One of them I guess is like not writing every little detail even though it will explain things. You have to use your brains. (Yes we girls have them too... shocking, isn't it.)
About the post, so happy for you, SG. We can't get our hopes too high, but we can't kill hope either. Let's daven and at least you enjoyed this date, whatever the outcome. And it's nice to at least know there are nice boys and nice dates out there.
Shalom
Hi SG,
Good to see that you can find (so far) decent guys out there, we are a rare breed!
I was also inspired by NJG, it's a constant struggle and I wish you luck.
Keep us posted.
TRK
It's always nice to read positive experiences; with this cold weather we can all use a warm feeling.
I once dated in New York and had no idea where to take the girl, too bad I didn't now about this great place you were at.
Btw the getting lost is a classic, it’s also a great way to analyze your date’s behavior in an unexpected situation.
"YG that is really mean and vicious,"
Mean and vicious? Not at all. I was simply commenting on the illogic of learning the importance of a obligation from one who doesn't keep it.
As for my age at marriage, I don't really see the relevance, but if you must know, I was in my mid-20s.
Sounds like a very interesting date, and as if you were happy with the situation.
Have a Happy Hanukah!
Hey Lakewoodrules, why does everyone think they can be the judge of everyone else? Let SG's actions be between her and G-d.
LWR - please get a grip on yourself! Semgirl is talking about her feelings and the ability to control our actions on our feelings is one of the gifts from the Aibishter.
Mazel Tov on the nice date, Semgirl! You should go from strength to strength and not from guy to guy. I have to echo the hope that he is the right guy for right now and if he isn't, that you are allowed to see it soon.
I totally agree about the smell of someone - I've been completely put off by scent, not that the person was unclean or anything, just somehow repellent to me. And certain colognes are just wonderful...
Thanks for the good post and the recent visit....
YG what you said was entirely intolerable. HOW DARE you criticize NJG for her having broken shomer negia after keeping it till she was 35! i highly doubt anyone ANYONE has ever mannaged it that long with out being married ever. she is most deffinitely a tzadekes just for that, and anyone who has the collosal gall and arrogance to question that after 35 years she just couldn't anymore (and it's not like she's giving it up either, she plans to be shomer negiah from now on also!)
you can't say that she's not shomer negiah just because of one slip up. it happens to the best of people, (remember according to chazal even most tzadikim mess up at some point, sometimes big sometimes small, and also the saying that a tzadik falls 7 times, and gets up 7 times, which is EXACTLY what she's doing. so she fell once, she's also getting right back up, nor is she saying what she did was right.)
now i'm going to back off now because i'm getting red in the face with anger from just how terrible your comment was, and anger is a BAD BAD thing, and it's considered as if someone had worshiped idols if they ever get angry, so i'm going to stop this indignation before i really do get angry...
A Very upset
HNC
(and yg you should big time appologize puplicaly to NJG who ever she is for what you said about someone so good and determined in her mitzvos)
Wow...I can't believe there are boys under 25 that appreciate Bach..Tchaikovsky...
Very impressive..
Masmida: Amen
Shev: So happy to hear from you..it means a lot.
Prag: Thank You
HNC: Actually I always hear Class music in my house, cant speak for everyone..
BB: Lets hope..
Josh: I don’t know if I can say this about everyone here ( hint, hint) , but you have always been a dear friend..
Mata Hari: I try..
EC: Thanks, IYH by you too.. BTW are you going to answer my email..
TRK: And getting rarer.. I hope you are part of that breed..
NB: Thanks for everything.. I really mean that..
YG: “ Mean and vicious? Not at all. I was simply commenting on the illogic of learning the importance of a obligation from one who doesn't keep it.”
So tell me something, if you speak Loshon Hara just once, and regret it, are you a Baal LH that should be “thrown to the dogs” Chofetz Chaim’s words not mine..
Mid 20s, my point exactly, NJG is 35..You should really email her an apology.
Mstark: What don’t just go for a Hotty, has someone stolen your S Name , lol..
Barbs: Thank you.. You too.. Send my best wishes to your daughter..
Lrules: 1) I stand corrected all the Monsey guys I have known .. 2) I was just revaling my thoughts and desires, that’s it.. Geez, this is a blog, not Divorce Court, Counselor..
JewBoy: Thank you..Ditto..
Aveibl: Ditto again..
MyBaldSheitl: Thank You..LWR double DUH..
Dave: Who said, he was under 25.. Just joking.. He did admit that they were his mother’s Cds, and she told him girls like that stuff.
Wow, good for you semgirl for your nice date. I must agree with mata hari- I never heard anyone make a lounge date sound so glamorous. In fact, in my years of dating I have been to a loungs once, and that was this past christmas eve (nothing was open). I stay away from them. But then it is not so much as where you go as to whom you are going with.
I know the responses I am going to get for saying this, or at least what is going through some of your stereotypical minds, but I too have felt the desire to hold a girls hand on a date and I am not suicidal either LOL. I wish you luck in all your dating endeavors and hope this guy turns out to be as dreamy as you make him sound.
BTW- Michael Koors for men- a unique smell and two different frum beis yaakov girls have commented on it on past dates. Wish you could smell it sometime...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Oh and by the way- there are some of us yeshiva guys who appreciate Bach and Mozart. Ever hear of the Trans-Siberian Orchestra? Though they only have one album that is not Christmas songs, if you fancy a different and interesting concept in music that is still classical, pick up their album entitled "Beethoven's Last Night"- amazing...
frumsingleguy - i definitely agree that it's who you're with and not what you do that makes it fun. when i'm with a guy i'm not interested in, i don't care if it's an expensive restaurant - i just want out of there....and if i like the guy - i'm happy just hanging out and being comfortable.
i didn't know there where frum people raised around "classical music". nice to know i'm not the only one who was. (bach, vivalti, mozart, behtoven, tchikovsy, paganini, brahms, (and several dozon others i can't think of, and couldn't spell for the life of me)
if you cant tell it is happy news that at least some frum people dont mind the idea of listening to the great classical composers.
gonna tell us who your favorite composer is? (or for that matter your favorite of the famous conductors)
I can relate with you on the whole dry spell thing. Im happy that you actually enjoyed yourself, ecsp. on a first date!
I think, and i speak for myself as well, every frum boy and girl has that desire to want to touch the opposite sex. No matter your upbringing. Not to say that some people don't find it easier then others, but its a hard thing to control. In the end everyone does what is right for them. Only you can decide which step you take next.
Good luck!
I think the getting lost in the Bronx part was key. If date's go too much as planned, the whole thing is scripted. But when something unexpected happens, does he laugh, does he panic, does he get angry, etc. This is the guy/girl when they can't control everything, and that is real life. Of course guys will follow rules and protocol, but take them out of their element, and you can see if they're worth anything. Too bad you can't always get such a telling experience on a first date!
Most Jews seem to like Tchaikovsky best as his music (and most Russian Classical) has..an exotic sound that Jews can relate to.
can i just point out that if you don't wanna hold his hand, maybe he isn't the one for you?
i never could spell. :-) (you wouldn't believe the grades i got on spelling as a first grader. its the only subject i ever even considered cheating on. i did just that badly.)
Josh made a good point about seeing how people are out of their element or in a (hopefully small) crisis - like getting lost. Or stumbling over the doorstep, like the first time I met my husband. That and the ability to laugh - at one's self, at the same jokes, etc. is huge. Unfortunately, that stuff isn't always available at the first date.
Good luck!
mini-crisises are deffinitely the way to go in ascertaining a dates character. especialy when kids who are around do something unexpected (like accidently over turning ice cream on his suit, little kids attemping to steal his hat, kids actualy stealing his hat, ect)...
then on at that rate why not make a point of for instance asking your date to wait a second while you do something, and would he kindly watch what ever 2-4 year old is running around causing so much trouble...
have to know how they react to kids.
I must say that I think this whole idea of "testing" your date is kinda dumb. You can't compare what a guy would do if some 2 year old he doesn't know stole his hat to what he would do if his own child did the same. I'll admit that if a guy is extraordinarily cruel to kids or very nice and caring that that can be an indication of his character. But I don't think it's really a good idea to purposefully "test" a date that way. Leave testing him up to G-d.
KCGuy :
At nite after 7, the rooms are open to the public. Its really a beautiful place, I would definitely go back there.
I agree with Jewboy , I know too many ppl men and women that are wonderful to everyone else's children and disgustiing to their own family.
Just a quick anecdote along the lines of my last post. A guy's on a date with a girl and they're driving in his car. Suddenly, she grabs the gearshift and puts the car in park. The car screeches to a halt but the guy doesn't get angry. The girl says, "You passed my test." He says, "Well, you failed mine."
SG-What great news! It sounds promising. I am so happy for you that you had a great time. Good Shabbos.
In concert with Jewboy's point, I want to clarify that I think it is a terrible mistake to intentionally test your date, in any way. You can learn a person's real nature from unscripted events, but intentionally playing with their mind to see how they react won't result in anything positive.
I also want to say Tzionish was right on the money...
Sem, wow that's great news BH.
B'sha'a Tova
GREAT 2 hear you had an enjoyable date.. much luck with this guy in the new year!!~Lost
ok, it seems the consensus is that it is not only a bad idea, but it is just mean... sorry. :-(
"HOW DARE you criticize NJG for her having broken shomer negia after keeping it till she was 35! i highly doubt anyone ANYONE has ever mannaged it that long with out being married ever."
You've gotta be kidding. I know people who I am sure have kept it far longer, only they don't get onto the net to boast about it. It all depends on your commitment. Besides, I wasn't criticizing SNG (although I will in a moment), but simply pointing out the illogic of learning self-control from someone who has publicly proclaimed that she has not excercised it.
And by the way, she does not regret what she did. She says it was the right thing at the right time, or something to that effect.
"So tell me something, if you speak Loshon Hara just once, and regret it, are you a Baal LH that should be “thrown to the dogs” Chofetz Chaim’s words not mine.."
There's a difference between being nichshal once and between making a public announcement that you are thinking about being nichshal, and then documenting the aveirah for everyone, and then saying how wonderful it was. I think she's a chotah u'machati, and not someone from whom to learn self-control.
SemGirl, I got this feeling of girlish anticipation for you! Wow, your date sounded like a dream! Please keep us posted!
yeshiva guy:
you do realize that anyone who is as arrogently sure of himself as you are is guranteed to be wrong.
our sages do teach "don't be sure of yourself untill the day you die"
NJG isn't, she's commiting to continuing the shomer negia in future dating and that is the ikkur. change in thought in our tradition is irrelevant. action is principle. if she quits the deed she has repented. (which from what i understand she has.)
NOW APOLOGIZE!
and btw, so are these people over 35 and not married and never been married, etc? i really find that hard to believe. (i've never in my life met such a person who was a frum from birth)
and she doesn't boast on her blog either.
SemGirl-
Bout time you wrote this piece. Mazel Tov and I hope another date is in the writings on the wall. I am so happy for you. Take care and keep us posted..
T
"and btw, so are these people over 35 and not married and never been married, etc?"
Yes, and ffb too.
Re. SNG, why don't you read her posts before darshening? She is not regretful, and has definitely not committed to remaining shomeres negiah from here on in.
Yeshivaguy, why don't you get a clue? With all your self righteousness you seem to have forgotten to be dan lkaf zchus. You have no right to criticize SNG, who went through torment few of us can imagine. Lay off her.
"who went through torment few of us can imagine."
Give me a break, will you?
yeshiva guy, you really are an extremely cruel and un feeling person. (not to mention entirely with out torah, for we are taught that someone with a cruel heart is not capable of having torah.)
I can only echo the comment of Halfnutcase, Yeshivaguy. Where's your rachmanus for an afflicted neshama? Just the fact that she was shomer negiah for as long as she was is commendable. I don't know what your marital status is, but if you are married and got married fairly young, you really have no room to judge her because you cannot fathom the nisayon she went through. Her blog is not an attempt to publicize and flout her "sin", as you seem to think it is, but an attempt to reconcile her feelings by writing them down. I can only feel pity for you because you seem to have forgotten that Hashem created the world with rachamim as well as din. You would do well to incorporate some rachamim into your life.
"Her blog is not an attempt to publicize and flout her "sin","
You're right, it's not an "attempt" to flaunt (not flout); it is an actual, quite successful flaunting of her sin.
"yeshiva guy, you really are an extremely cruel and un feeling person."
Not at all, just someone who dislikes b.s. But you're welcome to believe what you wish.
Yeshivaguy - why are you so intolerant?
For someone who dislikes b.s., funny how you're so full of it your eyes are brown, YG.
B/c it annoys me when a supposedly frum person publicly flaunts their sin. It should bug you too, frum girl.
"your eyes are brown, YG."
How'd you know? Do we know each other?
YG
You sound like a lot of the jerks I went out with. BH, I dropped them like a bad habit.
I'm thankful that we don't know each other, YG. Good job, SG. You made me proud.
"You sound like a lot of the jerks I went out with. BH, I dropped them like a bad habit."
Or they dropped you. Or refuse to go out with you altogether. Maybe you should change some of your habits. Or advisors.
"I'm thankful that we don't know each other, YG."
I feel the love! Love ya too, JB.
"I think what semgirl looks up to is the fact that njg was sn up to that point."
What's so wonderful about that? 99% of Lakewood girls are shomer negiah until they are married. Why isn't that inspiring? Answer: B/c SG looks at those girls as a bunch of robotic frummies, who don't know beans about anything. It's not self-control when you're programmed to be good. But of course that's nonsense. Fine frum girls who don't cuddle with random boys they meet at the mall have desires too, only they don't act upon them until they are married. There is no shortage of good role models for shemiras negiah, but a person who deliberately, with forethought, violates the issur, while documenting the whole thing on the web, is not one of them.
And this business of who are we to judge is, in my opinion, a lot of bunk. God gave us brains, and the aiblity to distinguish between right and wrong, and there's no reason not to use our God-given abilities.
YG
Whatever happened to always consider your friend to be totally righteous and yourself to be totally wicked in your eyes.
V Dan Es Col Adom L Caf Zcus..
Oh, I forgot thats right, you probably don't stay for Mussar Seder..
And how do you know, what 99% of Lakewood girls do anyway.. Are you a Novi? Do you have Ruach HaKodesh..
"Whatever happened to always consider your friend to be totally righteous and yourself to be totally wicked in your eyes.
V Dan Es Col Adom L Caf Zcus..
Oh, I forgot thats right, you probably don't stay for Mussar Seder..
And how do you know, what 99% of Lakewood girls do anyway.. Are you a Novi? Do you have Ruach HaKodesh.."
I never claimed I'm righteous, so the 1st quote does not apply.
L'kaf z'chus doesn't mean pretending that boasting about a sin, and detailing it in all it's mushy details ("the nape of my neck") is okay.
Re. Lakewood girls: I have quite a few Lakewood relatives, and I know what they are about. Of course no one ever knows what's going on in the pnimei pnimius of a person, but l'fi re'os ha'ayin, they are a-ok.
To Flatbush yid: I'm married with a family b"h, so I'm not available for your s-i-l. But thanks for the compliment.
semgirl
thanx for your compliment i really appreciate the kind words ;)
To YG and Flatbushyid: Rarely have I been as disgusted as I was while reading your comments. We already know YG hasn't the foggiest clue, so I don't need to waste too much time with him. You're an arrogant, cruel, foolish person. You don't have to approve of anyone's actions but only the One Above can judge people.Maybe take a look at Sefer Chafetz Chaim once in awhile, because you clearly haven't up till now.
Flatbushyid, get a life. what does "soft personality" mean? I'm not sure. I don't think my wife has a soft personality, and she is a great wife. Your criticisms and assumptions about SG are totally out of line. I may not necessarily approve of all her actions, but I keep that to myself. You have to try to understand where she's coming from in life. It's a good idea to try to do that with everyone you encounter. It's also not nice to try to embarrass her with your crackpot shidduch poll. I wouldn't let my wife or daughter go out with you or YG, that's for sure.
Nicely said, Masmida. I'm sure many of us cannot condone SNG's act. But we must not condemn her for it either. We are not meant to judge people, only the Aibeshter can do that. Haven't all of us sinned at some point?
i'm going to take a moment to point out here that shomer negiah halachos are at their very very worst possibly a takana from some of the earlier sages. it has litteraly no source in the 613 mitzvos of the torah, nor in the 7 rabbinic mitzvos. it was simply a wise takana made by chazal. she did no avaira whatsoever. no it was not praiseworthy, but speaking about strict halacha, there is litteraly no grounds for condemning here.
(and btw, YG or flatbushyid, if you happen to dissagree, go to a very well known rav, the kind whom people send shailos to and ask him exactly what is involved in her actions. they will tell you the exact same thing.
what is more, "Frum" only connotes the observence of shabbos, kasherus, teharas hamishpacha, and chinuch. davening b'tzibur with all that entiails is usualy includerd but not directly associated with those big four as are a number of others, tzitzis, tefilin, tznius CLOTHES (but not always) if you follow these their is no halachic grounds for discrimination. and ask a compitant rav if you dissagree, they will tell you the same thing)
"I wouldn't let my wife or daughter go out with you or YG, that's for sure."
I don't think you should let your wife go out with anyone.
"it has litteraly no source in the 613 mitzvos of the torah, nor in the 7 rabbinic mitzvos."
What are you hocking a cheinik about? Check your Mesillas Yeshariim for the tzad d'oraysah of all avak arayos. For heaven's sake, even histaklus has a tzad d'oraysah, kal vachomer negiah. Yes, I know, it's not the same as a sexual act, but stop pretending it's okay.
"I personally am only 22 and with 85% of my class married, it is sometimes hard being single in the frum world. I won't even start with all the i"yh by you's that i receive about 5 times a day and the "your are being too pickys." it is a very stressful time but don't worry i am still enjoying my independence."
I empathize; I wish you all the best; your proper zivug ASAP.
"if you follow these their is no halachic grounds for discrimination."
Who's talking about discrimination? We're discussing (a) whether it makes sense to be inspired re. shomer negiah from one who is not, and (b) whether SNG did the wrong thing by planning and posting all the details of her sin on her blog. No discrimination there.
"and ask a compitant rav if you dissagree"
I'd rather ask a competent speller.
"I'm sure many of us cannot condone SNG's act. But we must not condemn her for it either."
I'm curious. Is there any sin - any sin at all - for which you would condemn a person?
excuse me, i'm talking look at the major sefarim. shulchan aruch, mishah torah, the gemorah, none of them source is as an avaira. just a tekana. "who ever touches a woman in a manner of affection is punnishable with stripes" those are the words of the mishnah torah, elsewhere it is mentioned that it is nothing but an early takana, and not a well followed one either. your the one who needs to look in our ancient holy books.
not admirable, but not condemnable either, especialy by someone who has ever done anything more major wrong, as most boys have.
"who ever touches a woman in a manner of affection is punnishable with stripes"
Hello, that's makas mardus, which is administered for a d'rabanan, which is quite enough to condemn someone for. Besides, as I told you, there's a tzad d'oraysah for all avak arayos. Besides, acc. to some Rishonim, all d'rabanans are d'oraysahs as well, b/c of lo sosur.
YG: Freudian slip on my part. I meant to write "sister or daughter." And no, there is no aveirah I would condemn a person for. I would not condone it, perhaps I would disapprove of it, but I would leave the condemning up to Hashem. I think you should as well.
i'm well awear of that, i've also compleated and understand fairly well the relevant sections of the gemorah. there is no support in the gemorah for what you proport to say, and had you studied it, and relevant comentaries, you would know that.
your condemnation is out of line, not to mention unwise. you invite upon your self a carefull accounting of your errors. tell me, are you so pure you've never suffered from, for instance the nocturnal polution? according to our sages even that befalls a person to bring them punnishment for other deeds, and is in certain ways considered to be equivelent to willfull violation of a very very severe d'orisa prohabition. would you like hashem to judge you to such a standard? that is what you invite on your self.
(and don't answer that because i don't beleive you have the honesty to relate it accurately)(not to mention if you've ever had such a dream it indicates a total lack of wisdom inside your head, for such wisdom precludes such lewd thoughts from even entering in a dream)
Hmmm The last time I was here we were discussing Tchaikovsky and Vivaldi...
jewboy, hnc - regardless of whether this is considered an aveirah, takanah, misdemeanor or what have you - i have to agree with yeshivaguy that it's not something to be advertised.
Perhaps, Mata Hari, perhaps. But I think her purpose in writing was therapeutic, not to advertise her actions to the world. Can't we be a little tolerant of someone who's been through a lot of emotional pain?
"not to mention if you've ever had such a dream it indicates a total lack of wisdom inside your head, for such wisdom precludes such lewd thoughts from even entering in a dream"
Wierd stuff!
I mean "weird stuff."
I think I've contracted misspellitis on this blog.
torah, not weird stuff, and besides: i'm sure your also the kind of person to heckle and harass other people for using OU-D aren't you?
and yes please, lets go back to the music talk, it's so much happier.
"And no, there is no aveirah I would condemn a person for."
How about murder? Rape? Sexual molestation of a child?
And hey, haven't you been condemning me repeatedly for committing the "sin" of condemning SNG? So there are some sins that you would condemn!
"i'm sure your also the kind of person to heckle and harass other people for using OU-D aren't you?"
From nocturnal pollution to OU-D. How your thoughts do wander!
"none of them source is as an avaira. just a tekana."
You're being ridiculous. Every issur d'rabanan is a takanah. Since when are we cavalier about issurei d'rabanan?
Condemn the sin, not the sinner, my dear YG. You're not G-d.
why because i was a yeshiva bochur at one point my self. and my refrence is to the dreams, which most yeshiva bochurim do suffer from (albeit unhappily.) it goes so much to that point that chazal recognized as rare the person who does not suffer from it, and that such dreams result from an impure mind.
also most of the buchurim have other problems as well, including insufficiant respect for the diversity of torah oppinions, and also what is worse, a flawed understanding of bother arameic and hebrew grammer, syntax, and vocabulary especialy when it comes to the halachic litterature, however this isn't their fault. this is the result of the shoah killing the majority of the people who where intimately familiar with these topics. in addition a lack of kovod for the possition as a student is also rampant. many yeshiva bochurim i've met take the words in our books about taking one bath a week because that is what people do far to litteraly instead of realizing the fact that most people today take a bath daily. they therefore declare that many forms of taking care of one's self a "bitul torah"
the list goes on and on. though the most frequent sins with the yeshiva bochurim and yungerleit are sins bein adam l'chaveiro, and anger. you get lots of righteous indignation on their part, and it's not healthy and is problematic. "one who gets angry is as if he had worshipped idols"
i'm not a bais yakov girl, even though at times my commenting and posting might (pardon if i'm wrong) give the impression that i am. and while in general i don't get to the gemara as much as i would like, i am intimately familiar with halacha, aggada, and the perushim on chumash. (so much so that when i was 17 my rosh yeshiva told me to keep my mouth shut when other bochurim where incorectly giving over plain halacha, because he warned me that one who gives over more wisdom than his good deeds can support with lose said wisdom. and with that i'm going to be quiet before yg hoping to note that i do not condone what NJG did, however i do not find any reason with faulting her for what she did, and while she has still left things open, my suspicion is (from the way she wrote) that she will be shomer negiah in future relationships. but she left it open, nor does she excuse what she did as right (she has said that outright) and i think she is remorsefull most certainly, and we should wait and expect the best. only if this progresses to other problems should we even begin to suspect something bad, as a majority of people habitualy violate one takana or another, and this one was only well kept amoungst the students of torah anyway (historicaly)
"I have a feeling that all u ppl are having the time of your life just heckling each other."
Well, yes, it is kind of fun.
I wanted to answer FY when he first posted last nite, but a lil thing called sleep and life got in the way. Now I can respond to everyone.
FY:
Thank you, I haven’t laughed so much in a long time. It never ceases to amaze me how the ppl that are so Medakdik about SN and similar Halachos are so remiss in Bain Adom L’Chaveiro and Darchecha Darchei Noam.
I definitely wouldn’t want to socialize with YG, FY, or similar types and certainly not consider them potential mates, C”V.
Your lack of compassion for NJG is appalling. SHAME ON YOU… I don’t have to poll my readers , as time and time again they have voiced an opinion as to how they feel..
What is a soft personality anyway, someone that you can walk all over. I give you a Brocha that you acquire middos and and a Lev Tov.
YG:
I think I understand what you are saying. You feel that NJG is a tad bit graphic. In that regard, I would agree; in fact you will notice that I have toned down my blog considerably since the summer, when I realized that many bochurim were reading what I originally set up to be a girl’s blog.
Not that I have to answer to you, but I actually have completely SN since the beginning of Elul. This is due mostly to kind words of Chizzuk in private from Elisheva, and other friends I met thru this blog. I will be forever grateful to them for this I believe that I speak for most girls in saying that I would be pushed further away by the hostile banter from jerks like you, and others who act like similarly.
As for the Lakewood girls, I know many too. All I can say is you are very naïve. And the ones that really are SN 100% of the time, lets just say that they don’t excel in Chesed, Ahavas Yisroel, and Shmiras HaLoshen in many cases. Its an equation, we all have our weak and strong areas, even you.
Jboy:
Thanks for your support. I appreciate it..
Ms Shtark:
You are a Tzadeikes and don’t let anyone tell you differently.
Bruriah, I mean Masmida, couldn’t agree with you more..
FY: I want to start by making one thing clear. I never condoned anything SNG did, I simply would like people to be a little tolerant. Being tolerant does not mean condoning what she did. I acknowledge that she violated halacha and she should not have, but attacking her is just not constructive. One has to be careful with tochacha these days. It can only be used very carefully and only to certain people. Many of the posters on her blog are simply trying to help her through a tough time. After all, didn't SG say she got chizuk from Elisheva in being SN? You can help someone by giving them friendly chizuk and building them up, not by tearing them dow. I speak from experience. You and YG's hurtful comments will simply make things worse for SG and SNG. Don't you realize that it's these very kind of hurtful comments that make SG unhappy with some of her community?
It is not up to you how much tolerance there is for aveiros. That is for Hashem, and Him alone, to decide. If my friend committs an aveira, should I attack and berate him or speak to him soothingly, let him know I love him, and try to help him change? Devarim binachas tehah nishmaim. And you still haven't told me what a soft personality and its benefits are.
YG
For some one who seems to know how to learn, aren't you embarrassed that a girl has to tell you that it says in all Mussar Seforim that if you hurt someone's feelings or make them cry, you are Nofeil BGehennom not Yored LGehennom, meaning that you stay there. ( you really should stay for Mussar seder , the ladies you are steering at on Forest Ave will still be there at 8 ) .
If you can't give Tochacha properly DON'T..
HNC: I am so glad you (blush blush) mentioned dreams and stuff, so I don't have to.
David and MS : I still want to talk music if you do..
MHari: In theory you are right, but it is her blog, and she needs catharsis..
FY: There is zer tolerance for L Hora and hurting someone. My BY teachers would be the first to say that I should accept Mussar from an Ehlicher Yid who means Lishmoh and not some obnoxious troll on the internet. Go to BY, Bais Sheindl, or Bais Sheindl, and ask them yourself..
When are you going to do tshuva and say Publicly on NJG's blog
"I am not a Rov, but unfortunately a big Am Haaretz, but I think you may have done something wrong, However I did something far worse by publicly humiliating you, and I humbly ask you for Mehila."
"As for the Lakewood girls, I know many too. All I can say is you are very naïve."
Not at all. I have no doubt that your friends are much like yourself. I'm talking about everyone else.
"you really should stay for Mussar seder"
You seem to be fixated on mussar seder. Did the guy you met in the mall go to mussar seder regularly? Did you ask him?
"You feel that NJG is a tad bit graphic."
No, that's not my problem with her. What annoys me is that she publicly planned and documented her sin. I would feel the same if she had been less graphic too.
As the nutcase wrote, everyone sins ocassionally. But the way she publicized it was just too over the top.
"the ladies you are steering at on Forest Ave will still be there at 8"
Was that you then?! I thought so.
And it's staring not steering. What's with the spelling here?
"I definitely wouldn’t want to socialize with YG"
Ahh, a sigh of relief.
"However I did something far worse by publicly humiliating you"
Oh please, she publicly humiliated herself.
SG:
i want to say that i for one am very proud of you for beggining to be SN, i know just how hard it can be to switch. and i'm sure theres got to be a way to ban the troll. i don't think he'll learn.
masmida your totaly right, and i ask of YG forgiveness for abusing him a couple of times.
i have real problems thinking of any other mitzvah when it comes to hearing/seeing/or otherwise knowing about a person being shamed/hurt/or otherwise wronged. if your going to have a flaw it's an admirable one to have, but a flaw nonetheless and your right i need to correct it.
"YG, please calm down."
I'm calm. Just defending myself.
HNC, you're nice to apologize, but it's not necessary. I don't take this stuff personally. It's just part of the give-and-take of blog commenting. But in case you do, so sorry.
"i'm sure theres got to be a way to ban the troll."
The administrator can ban anyone she wants. But who's the troll?
Wow! Wow! Wow! Okay, I am back from my vacation, and before I get all sorts of complaints I know I owe you all e-mails, but I had to like check out my friend SG's blog first and OMG!
First of all SG I am totally humbled by what you wrote about me. I hope a little of that was true. It should be for my zechus. We can all use those.
About the whole debate here: I will admit I read very little of NJG's blog so I won't comment much on the specifics. But I will note that YG did not start off here with being upset at what she did, nor is that what SG wrote about. SG said she got chizuk from her and YG couldn't imagine getting chizuk from her. So the issue is not whether NJG did wrong, but whether it is normal to get chizuk from her.
Now someone mentioned the difference between getting chizuk from all Lakewood girls who are SN, but that it is different because they are brought up like that. YG didn't agree with that. I will comment both personally and from something I learned from someone special.
Personally I can say that I was brought up in a very yeshivish family and am considered a regular yeshivish girl. Yes the type that my friends wouldn't dream that I have internet in the first place. Call me a hypocrite or whatever, but this is my life. I believe in most of the yeshiva worldview, but have my nisyonos as I am a very curious and exposed girl.
I can say though that as much as I surely have desires like any other human, and OMG can they drive me crazy, like seeing a cute guy, reading an arousing thought etc., as much as I go crazy fantasizing about touching etc. it is not something I really can do without getting into major trouble most of the time. So although it is a major desire, in fact it is not much of a nisayon in a phisical sense.
Girls who were brought up differntly, or even if they were brought up like me but now dress, act, consider themselves not that yeshivish have a bigger nisayon because in the circles they are in today, it would not totally put them in huge trouble/jeopardise their whole identity if they would give in.
So although we like have the same desire, it is easier for me to stay away bacause of communal/family/social pressure.
That was the personal feeling. Also I was shown that the chovos halevovos (hope I don't sound too frummy here) says that busha/embarrassment was created in order to stop people from sinning. So it is a good thing not to sin because of that. He doesn't say that a person is supposed to be such a yiras shomayim that even without busha he would never sin, though obviously that is a great madrega.
The last thing is that the Vilna Gaon says that a person who has a terrible nature and fights it even a little, can be much better than someone with a great nature that puts no effort into being good. In other words even though the second guy like looks so much better, the first guy in shomayim may be considered greater.
So in short what I am saying is that though what NJG did could have been a sin, and maybe it is wrong what she discusses (again I didn't really ever have time to go through her whole blog to know for sure) it would be very normal for someone to get chizuk that someone in her situation could hold herself back as long as she did. Like even though she is like the first person and looks worse, and maybe she is worse in that she sinned, still she gets credit because she did in fact try harder and have like a way greater nisayon the the average yeshivish Lakewood girl like myself, though we may have the same desires.
Gosh, that was my bit. Sorry about spelling and stuff. Just got on and like need to e-mail ppl and do my own post (hopefully!) but like needed to comment on my friend's blog.
Shalom
PS. My father is like so into classical music. I won't say I love it, but I did learn to appreciate a nice piece. It would be great to discuss that.
"But I will note that YG did not start off here with being upset at what she did, nor is that what SG wrote about. SG said she got chizuk from her and YG couldn't imagine getting chizuk from her. So the issue is not whether NJG did wrong, but whether it is normal to get chizuk from her."
Exactly. Thanks for noticing. My critics seem to have trouble with reading comprehension.
(Although once I got into it, I did let my feelings about her be known.)
Re. being inspired by SNG, I still don't hear it, but thanks for trying to explain.
OMG! I already got an e-mail from a guy who is dissapointed that I was like quoting sefarim.
FYI, although some of the guys seem to think (or like to imagine) that we girls are just all about different shades of pantyhose or styles to wear our hair, we do actually learn quite alot. Yes, I have that feminine aspect to me, but I do know a rishon from an achron and can understand things like that. I think guys need to like understand that. Maybe I don't usually show that side so it was a surprise to some.
To be honest, the reason I had all this stuff right off the bat was because I had agonized over a similar question in my personal life a while back. I had asked a guy I have quoted often who is like a fountain of Torah but with normalcy and common sense. (He is married, but it would be nice if more bachurim were like that.)
Anyway, most of the stuff he told me about, and yes, I did look them up, and I do understand them.
Shalom again
DM Your input is appreciated, but please write in appropriate way, so as not to offend anyone here, including me..
FY.. I apologize, although Im not really sure what offended you. And I still havent seen your apology to HJG for publicly embarrassing her, you could of chastised in private email.
When blog activity is frenzied spelling goz by wayzide.
All - I'm glad moderate voices have returned. I know we almost lost sight of the original post for awhile (thanks FY for reminding us), but remember the title - Something Positive(emphasis mine)? I'm not sure how that evolved into an attack, deserved or not. But to echo FY's question, so, nu, what happened with Positive boy? Is Pachebel playing in the background?
Not to be the wet blanket here, but i find it a little disturbing that you are all discussing this person's faults so openly here. I challenge evryone here to look at their faults, and think if you would like them discussed like this. Granted she put it on her blog, but I don't think it was her intent for it to be disected like this.
I wholehartedly agree with you RBR. I just mentioned her in passing on my post, to show appreciation for her blog. Regardless, of everything, I find her to be a tremendous inspiration. In fact, Shev explained that much better than I could.
Then somehow, it spiraled out of control. Thanks for pointing that out.
Like Josh said, lets keep this positive..
"Granted she put it on her blog, but I don't think it was her intent for it to be disected like this."
She's been doing a blow-by-blow on her blog for months, answering comments etc. That's about as public as you can get.
I believe that this is the concept of avak lashon harah - where you're not supposed to speak about someone even in a positive way, because it may lead the other person to say something negative.
yeshivaguy - sounds to me like you're a frustrated writer (or a future lawyer) and you would do well to start a blog of your own :)
btw - you don't sound like you're 22.
yeshiva guy, please drop it.
now on the other hand we want to echo the request to know if anything more has developed with the date.
I also love Tchaikovsky! :) And various other Russian classical composers/ Russian writers-literature. :) Indoor waterfalls sound beautiful. Huzzah!
Chana..
Me too! I'm in love with Russian culture..
Tchaikovsky, Rimsky Korsikov, Stravinsky, Tolstoy, Dostoyevsky..and my favorite Chekhov..
Tchaikovsky's dance of the suger plum fairies is a favorite of mind, its so bouncy, and it always can bring a smile.
(i don't attach names very well to the music, just like i don't remember people names either... so to comment on particular peices i'd have to listen to it first so i don't forget who wrote it. and yes i had to find copy someone elses spelling of the composer in order to get it right)
When I was little I read the bios of all the composers. I loved Beethoven's Fifth, Chopin, Strauss Waltzes.. And my absolute favorite was always Mozart.
Especially after seeing Amadeus in the hotel one Chol HaMoed..That is one DVD, I would definitely want to own..
we have and old tape of it somewhere. if i understand correctly it's based on the history, as the court musician ends up working mozart to death, recounting his jealousy and anger at this young upstart who usurped his favor with the king of austria (i think) i LOVED that movie.
mozart is also a favorite of mine (i'm not sure if he's my alltime favorite, but he is one of the few composers that i can recognize the style of his work.
I've seen Amadeus 6 times..lol
Great..Great movie..really gets into his wild mind.
"btw - you don't sound like you're 22."
I'm not.
yg - i thought you said you were in one of the comments, but i very well may have lost track
bmg: thanks .. so did the advice I gave you help .. you can let me know privately if you want.
"By the way licht bentching was 4:25 you have nothing better to do 12 minutes before shkia then to blog?"
I'd assume that bmgbochur was ready for Shabbos nice and early and therefore had plenty of time to blog. What are you giving him a hard time about?
Well in any event I appreciate being the last thought on BMG's mind before Shabbos.
I don't go to shul and Im all alone until my father and brothers come home, so I do check comments and stuff like 5 minutes before Shabbos,
As for why he is in BMG, probably to network for Shidduchim. I am going out now with someone who learns in a small yeshiva in Monsey, cant say which, and he says that he always has to call Shadchanim, because outside of Lwood they dont know you exist.
"I don't go to shul and Im all alone until my father and brothers come home,"
And your mother is where?
Silly question. Lying down, of course!
"Well in any event I appreciate being the last thought on BMG's mind before Shabbos."
Hmm, I sense something promising here. SG, if the present thing doesn't work out, why not give BMGB a chance? Will you be needing a shadchan?
Ah well, I tried to do my part to alleviate the shidduch crisis. What can I do if the parties won't cooperate?
"when I was in israel I stayed in yerushlaim in yshva not in dunzegraft. "
What is dunzegraft.
No, you dont seem like the right boy for me.. Not that SN isn't important.. But I kind of have my heart set on someone who is more concerned with Shmiras HaLoshon, Chesed, Never hurting another Yid's feelings..
You seem way too obsessed with superficial stuff..
And let me guess you want a girl who is a size 4..
FY
There are a few other yeshivos for someone of marriagable age. I went to one myself.
bmg - please - the spelling!
serius?
diffrence?
previus?
i'm sure you shteig in learning, but you live in America - at least run it through spellcheck
Ok, I accept your apolgy.. From all your posts you seem like a very decent guy, but really. From what I understand Loshon Hara is 28 lovim , I think 8 Asehs, and worse then the big 3 combined. Embarrassing someone is worse..
Negiah, according to some is ONE Drobonim. Stay for Mussar Seder you might learn something.
"I guess someone pushing me to go out with u raitzed it on (wonder who?)"
Hey, don't blame me. I just suggested a shidduch. I don't see how that compelled you to start ranting and raving about shomer negia and dizengoff. You could have just said no, or ignored the suggestion altogether.
"Stay for Mussar Seder you might learn something."
Veiter with mussar seder. It seems to be something of an obsession with you.
To be honest, the best guys are often the ones who don't make such an issue about mussar seder. Honest.
bmgbochur, you seem like a nice guy, but you apologize too much. Stand your ground!
You're mixing me up with someone else. I'm long past 22 and I'm married with a family. As for the rest of the post, I can only say ... whatever.
"sorry I guess I mixed you up with someone else"
Stop saying sorry, dammit! It doesn't matter if you mixed me up with someone else; it's fine.
And look, about the marital advice, first get married. After a few years you can start dispensing advice (although at that point, you may not be that eager to do so). It'll be a lot more authoritative then.
DM.. G Morning to you too... Thanks for always being the ray of sunshine here.
eshet chayil - if you ask him not to, he won't
Ok, lets compare exprenses.. This is going to sound like a C Card com’l sorry, guys..
Shoes, not always but often enough..40$ and up
Hosiery Plus 20$ …I can get by with Shop rite , el Cheapo on a day to day basis, but for dayes you need the good stuff , Berkshire at 9$ a pair, its very embarrassing to get a run on a date.
Outfits, especially if you go out five or six times and need new things all the time .. 100$ and up by Nordstroms, Macys or a Heimishe place in town, that usually doesn’t have my size
Cosmetics 20 $ (eyeliner, shadow, rouge, foundation, lipsick, mascara , powder)
Perfume it varies , and the good stuff lasts a long time, but it still is expensive
Supercuts or the really expensive place in Howell, but they give a quality haircut, eyebrow waxing, and facial, and linen wraps .
This is in addition to, for example on my last few dates I had to drive from Lakewood to Monsey, and pay gas, tolls, and nosh for the way..
Then after all that, its 100$ or more for the Gym or Spa or just a nice treat for myself when I get dumped or have to say no to the boy, and I am all depressed ..
um...
first, you can wear the same suit to successive dates, all you have to do is take care of it.
ditto for a tie, socks, shirts, and everything else you were.
shoes should last you ten years if you take decent care of them, (i know mine are like 3 years old and still look quite good with regular polishing)
also if you know where to shop you can get excelent ties for decent prices (about 14 dollars)
and why make the bochurim paupers with the expensive dates? i mean i understand going someplace nice, but that seems WAY much...
and on second thought i better figure out how to do a nice, respectfull shidduch date quickly. (oi all the things i have to do)
sigh, but i guess it's nothing compared to the compatition with the chassunahs, this person has a really opulent chassunah, this person doesn't want to be out done so they spend twice what they can afford to make a really oppulent chassuna to beat his buddy, this couple (or their family) is put in to poverty by trying to compete with the other two...
personaly i think they should make the chassunas small and if they really want to honor their children donate part of the rest to charity to bless the couple, and the the rest of that to the couple so that they can really esstablish their home in good standing.
i mean really all this gaivah about the weddings, it's not honoring the children, it's teaching them entirely the WRONG lessons and putting your self in debt to do it.
and i just wanna point out, i can fully understand the alure of wanting to have that perfect chassunah, because i've spent countless hours planning up pretend chassunahs too. just i don't like the idea of trying to out do everyone else it's a non-jewish attitude, not ours.
"shoes should last you ten years if you take decent care of them,"
Yes, and a toothbrush can last for at least fifteen years if you take good care of it and don't use it too much, but still, you ought to get a new one after a few months.
BMGBochur - while everybody is micro-analyzing your budget for a date, I want to know why in the world it takes you 2 hours to get to/from Brooklyn?
And once I'm posting, I think I'll claim the right to the first-ever 200th post on Semgirl's blog. Move over Elisheva :)
um no i'm not joking about the shoes, actualy it gets rather repeditive, every time i repolish, buff and shine my shoes, someone else comes up and tells me: "those shoes look really nice, are they new?!"
my point is, take care of your shoes, polish them, take them to the cobbeler if they need new soles, and they will continue to look very very nice for at least several years of daily use, at the rate you use them on shabbos, (even with dancing durring the zemiros at the meals) with weekly polishing, they will litteraly last you 10 years. i've seen it happen, and i've received comments about how nice and new they look.
and by the way, if you know where to shop you can get the same expensive name brand ties for 14 dollars. i know how to shop and, i regulary get compimented on how nice my ties look combined with my outfit. (I know that the really in style "jones new york" brand and the "kalvin klein" name lable ties can be bought like this, and even up to and including fancy foriegn ties like ALBY which is a italian make (very very fancy and nice) can be bought similarly. you simply have to know where to shop and catch the sales...)
sem girl, you can do the same thing with other garments cant you? (although i admit dresses nice enough for a date are much harder to get this way, almost impossible, same with suits and shoes)
but accessories can always be bought with a constant lookout for the good buys at the right times. (take a 40 percent sale at one of those stores like TJ MAX that buys the ties wholesale from department stores when they dump all the ties that havent sold yet infavor of other ties and you can get very very good buys. and anyway if you just have sales at the department stores a nice 50 dollar tie at 50% off costs just 25 dollars, i've done that a bunch too.)
to put it in one of the bochurim at yeshiva's words:
"how do you do it?! every shabbos you look good enough to get married!"
well, first you have to learn that certain clothes come in and out of style, while certain clothes are never exactly the hight of style, but are never out of style in any sense.
CLOTHING 101:
for suits look for dark colors, 2 or 3 buttons, for double breasted either one row of buttons to fasten, or two.
make sure to get good fabrics that last a while, and never ever ever button the bottom button, some people hold with a three button suit don't button the top button either.
shirts: white or blue with point collars are ALWAYS in style. french cuffs should be fairly fairly plain, nothing really special one them.
with ties certain styles stay in style all the time, basic reddish ones do, but never a medium or dark blue one with a black suit. (blue and black make people with a sense of style shiver) pink is NOT a good color to buy because it goes in and out of style too quickly. gold with like a check pattern with black stays in style, as to silver and green/red/black/purple diagnal stripes. black ties or plain white ties should mostly be used for plain occasions.
also in terms of seperate vests, its good for them to match the tie, or at least dark vests go well with dark ties, and light vests go well with dark ties. i can't emphesise enough just how bad it looks to have a dark suit, very light vest, and a really dark tie. same goes for sweaters under shirts. never try to go too gaudy, and you have to be carefull when mixing double breasted suits with vests, usualy works best if the suit is long. (as in the chassidish coats)
keep a look out for things that meet these qualifiers and snap them up when you find them, because they are always "in" and are always considered respectable. you can hold on to them and wear them forever if you can take good care of them.
Definitely, HNC I agree with you about sales. Dress Barn, in Howell had 70% off a few weeks ago, and I got 5 ezquisite outfits for around 75$.
So it pays to shop around . Recently, Elisheva alerted me to a store on 18th Ave that sell top of the line tights for half the price of everywhere else.
Wow did I miss such interesting stuff! And SG major congrats on the over 200 posts. I am so happy for you, only regret that I wasn't here to be the 200th.
Where do I start? I guess i think we all are exaggerating a bit, but it definitely is true that dates can be pricey.
I agree with Ms. Stark that most stuff we get anyway, so don't blame it on the dates. Like outfits, manicures, perfume, haircuts. Okay, if it's going good you will need some more outfits, but that doesn't happen every time.
On the other hand, shoes, hosiery, accesories and make-up is extra usually but isn't all that much besides the shoes. Yes there are sales, but when the date in tommorow night, you just have to buy what is available and cannot always wait to find the perfect shoe on sale.
I agree with lots of HNCs stuff. And I want to point out that maybe this is my personal opinion, but it like bothers me if a guy would do it like BMG B is describing. Like a guy who wears a different shoe on every date, same for suit. Please! That is so feminine and a turn off for me. A guy should be neat and well-groomed, but please leave the dressing up for us girls. I actually think it is so unmanly for a guy to be so into his cloths like a high-school girl. I think it might be because they feel inferior because they are in yeshiva where regular black and white is it and not what businessmen wear, but grow up.
Again, this is my feeling. maybe other girls go for guys who are so into their clothing, shoes, ties etc. For me it is like a guy trying to act feminine and a big turn off.
About the hosiery, I hope I didn't corrupt you SemGirl, but this is my weakness. Maybe I'm a spoiled girl, but el cheapo doesn't make me feel right. But at least I don't feel so guilty because I do try to buy the brand names cheaper. Still, if you are fine with less, don't let me be a bad influence.
Shalom
semgirl - did you say you bought 5 outfits for $75 ?!
Yes, one was marked down to 12$ from 69.. Check with Dress Barn when they have their drastic reductions.
Hey Semgirl -
I know this is incredible belated, but as you know, I have been out of the blog world for a little while, for a very good excuse.
I am really glad to hear that you had such a wonderful and I really hope that everything continues to go as well and better...
i know it's harder with girls clothes, especialy scince girls pay so much more attention to shopping and finding good buys, so your not as often the only one to notice them and hence if there where any someone else usualy already picked it up... (boys usualy don't like to shop around and just look at everything, waiting and finding the good buys, i happen to, it's just one thing that's strange about me)
(and btw, this is SO much better and more positive a tangent, and one probably a little more suited to a girls blog than some of the other tangents) and sides, what happened to josh?
"i know it's harder with girls clothes,"
You mean a girl can't wear the same pair of shoes for ten years, if she takes good care of them?
How about hosiery? How many years do you give them?
Speaking of hosiery and before everyone thinks I am a totally spoiled girl, I forgot to write my main argument for paying more for brand name stockings: They last longer. This is a fact. The cheaper ones may be cheaper, but like will run by me sometimes even as i am pulling them on for the first time. So money wise it may even pay to buy the more expensive ones because you can get more use. So if I can like get that, and even look better in the process, I don't see why not.
elisheva right on, that's why i very rarely buy the "cheap" brands, as opposed to paitently waiting on the sales with the good stuff, i mean where can they be skimping with the prices of those things? usualy either A with the quality of material which is bad, or they cut corners with the worksmanship, either one is like really bad.
and yeshiva guy, i was talking about shopping for clothes. for girls it's harder to shop for clothes, and i know little about how well they hold up,
although on that subject, you know what i always thought made a really nice, not to gaudy, nor to plain shoe for a girl? a patent leather pump. you know the ones, like the heel is only about 2 inches tall and usualy closer to 1 3/4ths inches? i always thought those looked sophisticated on a girl. and sometimes it feels a little sad that noone wears them very often any more. it was a really pretty, demure, and modest shoe. (personaly i don't think that really high heels do a girl many favors, not that i don't mind girls being tall, but i just don't see the point in hurting your ankles for the extra amount of height)
"YG .... you obviously dont have sisters or date or anything. Stockings only last two or three wearings."
I have lots of sisters. True, I don't date, but that's b/c I'm married. The comment about hosiery wasn't serious; I was just "tcheppering" HNC, who maintains that clothes should be replaced less frequently than automobiles.
how did this conversation veer so far off course. it started with "The Date" and now it's all about stockings and shoes. What happened to that guy?
A guy should NOT look shlumpy on a date. That is true.
Are guys who like clothing feminine? No. That is also true.
But I still think that something is seriously wrong when it's me and my friend who are studying nach for a test, and her brother and his friend are comparing ties, shoes, brands, even the straight-back line of their haircuts for over an hour!
Maybe other girls like go for it, but I know that lots of my friends laugh at these guys who are like living with fashion and style and have nothing else on their minds besides clothes all day. If you like it, fine. But if you're doing it to impress the girl, you may be in for a surprise.
Shalom
I came late into this discussion and hesitate to bring us back to another topic, but I assumed that when SemGirl said she admires NJG and was inspired by her to be shomer negiah on her date, what she meant was "if NJG could last until she was 35 then certainly I, being so much younger, can be Shomer at least a little longer!"
There is plenty to admire and be inspired by in NJG, as she waited as long as she did. Those saying it is no big deal, that "girls in Lakewood" wait until they are married are missing two points: a) most girls in Lakewood get married before they are 35 and b)there is a LOT of stuff going on in the yeshivish world that is not so nice. But no girl comes home from a date and tells her parents what she did in the backseat of the car.
Also, even if millions of people were shomer until they were 35, it is STILL a "big deal." It takes a LOT of self-control to do what NJG has done, and there is no need to minimize it just because she got CLINICALLY DEPRESSED and SUICIDAL and had to change something.
"What happened to that guy?"
He's at Syms, looking for a bargain on a name-brand suit. Or maybe he's at the cologne counter in Macys.
"b)there is a LOT of stuff going on in the yeshivish world that is not so nice. But no girl comes home from a date and tells her parents what she did in the backseat of the car"
Oh please, this is the old libel, that no one speaks about but "everyone" knows about. The percentage of yeshivishe girls dating yeshivishe boys for the purpose of marriage who fool around on the dates is so vanishingly small as to be almost nonexistent.
"It takes a LOT of self-control to do what NJG has done,"
You mean to publicize her desire to steal a kiss from every guy she passes in the street?
"do you think every time someone passes a kentucky fried chicken and it smells delicious, it is a big deal that when that person keeps on walking and doesn't eat the food. At what point do we say listen this is what hashem says take it or leave it."
If that person can go home and cook up some chicken, then I would consider it admirable, but not a "big deal," in the same sense that I consider it admirable for anyone to keep any mitzva when there is a temptation not to. If it wasn't difficult there would be no point in the concept of "schar" [reward], right?
But imagine someone who has no food in the house, who is malnourished, who is hungry all the time, and has no money to buy food, who is living on a few slices of bread per day and a little water . . . and someone offers that person a free sandwich from Kentucky Fried Chicken . . . and that person walks past and says "no" because the sandwich is not kosher.
THAT I'd call a big deal.
Now imagine that after YEARS of living on bread and water, and maybe finding food in dumpsters to get some protein and vegetables every now and then, and not being offered any kosher handouts, only the non-kosher chicken, the person starts a blog to tell the world "there are people starving out here because there is not enough kosher food available." She decides that the next time a Kentucky Fried Chicken sandwich is available, she'll take it, and then she does . . . well, yes, she did something against halacha. But how much energy are you really going to spend judging her badly for it?
At what point do we say "this is what Hashem said, take it or leave it . . . but to tell you the truth, if you leave it at this point, I can't bring myself to be too hard on you, because in your shoes I do not know if I could have resisted that much temptation"?
At what point do we leave it up to Hashem to do the judging, and to ourselves to have some compassion? At what point do we say "we have a responsibility to uphold communal standards, but this religion is really really difficult, and ultimately it is up to God to decide who has truly reached the end of their rope and who has not"?
I'm sorry, Flatbushyid, but when someone is clinically depressed and suicidal it is time to back away from pressuring them. We are not talking about Yosef hatzaddik, and we are not talking about someone who says "Hashem will understand if I wait 5 1/2 hours instead of 6 before I have milk." Nor are we talking about someone who is claiming that what she did is halachically OK or that she deserves some kind of prize. We're talking about a woman who sacrificed a primal, physical need for years and years in the name of Torah. I'd say that is admirable no matter how it ended.
This reminds me of the story about a writer who was watching the Israeli Army test a bunch of new draftees who were trying to get into an elite unit. Their test included running up a mountain with a heavy backpack on. There was a scrawny guy who fainted about 3/4 of the way up. The writer thought "too bad he failed so fast."
To his surprise, he later found out that that kid had been ACCEPTED into the unit. He asked the officer "how can you accept a kid who obviously has so little endurance?" and the officer replied:
"We can bulk him up and train him, give him the physical fortitude. But we can't give someone the willingness to keep going until he faints."
I'm getting off this thread. The more I read people arguing about NJG the more I see how intolerant the frum community actually is, even of each other -- and I'm part of it! No wonder it's so hard to sell people on Orthodox Judaism- we don't even give EACH OTHER a break. Apparently it's better to be on one's couch crying and skipping out from work for weeks and thinking about killing oneself, like NJG did, than it is to kiss a guy or try to make other people understand. I sure hope Hashem has more rachamim than we do, or we're all in big trouble.
i'm not going to say anymore, but you do realize that she never ever said it was ok, and that is very very different from saying i'm not sure if i can do this anymore.
we do need to start having more rachamim for people, and not be so narrow minded.
they is a principle in torah that says that in the case of sarkanos nefashos you are able to break (and it is even a MITZVAH) any mitzvah but adultery, idoltry and murder. she did none of these and it certainly was getting to the point of being sarkanos nefashos.
while i haven't been in her particular situation, i HAVE been in a situation where there was a similar kind of sarkana. emotional distress can kill a person, and thats why there is a halacha stating that someone who was mentaly or emotionaly ill CAN NOT be held accountable for suicide.
suicide is the usual way mental and emotional strain like this takes someones life. and if you know that you'll be put in such a case, you are perfectly right in doing what it takes to get you out of that sarkana, however one should bare in mind that hashem knows where we really are and he's the judge of sarkanos nefashos, and if out situation doesn't measure up then we will be accountable in the heavenly court.
but on the other hand there is litteraly NO grounds for incriminating her, and i feel that this vice and problem of not properly respecting sarkanos nefashos is something that is making a large number of the leaders of our communities guilty of shedding blood, as per the egla arufa.
and by the way, if you copy and print out my comment and take it to a learned and respectably rov, then they will probably tell you this analysis is correct, they may dissagree with the pratim, but in its essence it is certainly correct.
perkei avos 3:11 and 4:3 4:7 5:19
you three who are openly condemning her, and not lementing the action as the rest of us do: learn them very well, memorize them, and place them deep in to your souls all three of you who condemn her, practice them every day of your life. and hopefully these will teach you to help you selves.
now i'm going to ignore the rest of this contraversy
Me too.
"just looking for an anonymous way to schmooze with girls?"
I don't know. Anonymous schmoozing just doesn't seem satisfying enough for that to be true.
"i wonder if i know you guys in the "real world"."
Give us some hints, and we'll let you know!
Gesh : Ah, just leave BMG-B alone, he's a nice guy, and he means well.. And guess what there is a Ribono Shel Olam in Blogville too,, If you hurt someones feeling, or are Mitztair a Yid, Hashem knows who are and will hold
you accountable. Why is everyone so worried about one alleged violation of Negia that we didnt even see, but no one cares about constant lack of Bain Adom L'Chaveiro that we all witness in this discussion.
YG.. one word Nebach
Sarah You conveyed my point exactly with greater eloquence and articulateness than I am capable of. Interested in Co-Writing this blog.
HNC.. You are 1000% right..
FY .. Devorim B'Nachas Nishmoyim
Shani .. a belated Welcome Home
Shev .. well you get what you pay for..
SG your blog is like really happening! (for better or worse, what with all the arguing...)
I would just like to say one thing. We have to learn to differentiate between an aveira and the person doing it. Why is it either that, "Oh it's really no thtat bad, derabanan, whatever, or else it is like that lady is going straight to gehenom etc.?
What is wrong with that who are we kidding, it definitely is pretty bad, especially these things make our whole kedusha and it says v'shav me'aharecha only on like matters of kedusha which negia is definitely a part of. At the same time it is normal for people to do really bad things and hashem surely made us that way and understands us etc.
So what I am saying is that I totally don't want to sound preachy but yes it is bad, but no, we don't judge the person, only Hashem does. And like I said earlier, we totally can learn from when people overcome a nisayon which is hard for them.
Shalom
To Sarah, Halfnutcase, and Elisheva: Your comments have restored my faith in the Jewish people. It's good to see there are are still people that remember that the three traits of Jews are to be baishanim, RACHMANIM, and gomlei chassadim, unlike many of those who post comments here.
SG, I'm crushed. Does that count as being metza'er another yid?
FY, how do you know which yeshivos geshmaker was in?
Wow, I got comment 200, and now I get 250! I hope we'll get a new post before we make it to 300 ... for everybody's sake!
Ok, now that I got up the 250th comment before somebody could beat me to it :) -
I have no interest in the whole NJG debate as it's certainly not bringing Moshiach any faster. I just want to clarify what I believe to be a halachic fallacy that keeps being thrown around. Many people write that since she was clinically depressed, suicidal, etc., then it was permitted and perhaps even required to do what she did b/c of pikuach nefesh.
I'm not a Rav, nor have I discussed NJG with one, but the halacha is that one doesn't just give up one's life over giluy arayos but even for avizrayhu (accessories for lack of a better translation) of giluy arayos (or idolatry or murder)(Yoreh Deah 157:1). I realize there's quite some debate over what's included in that, but remember that the Chazon Ish holds that shaking a woman's hand is included! So it's not something to be thrown around and taken lightly.
In fact I'm surprised that none of her detractors has yet quoted the story brought in the Gemora (Sanhedrin 75a) - a certain man became infatuated with a woman to the point that it caused him a life-threatening illness. The doctors said the only cure would be to have relations with her. The Chochomim said if so, let him die. The doctors said it would be enough for her to stand unclothed in front of him. The Chochomim said if so, let him die. The doctors said he'll be ok just if he speaks with her while she stands behind a mechitza. The Chochomim said if so, let him die! One opinion in the Gemora maintains she was a married woman (in which case the Gemora assumes their p'sak makes perfect sense!), the other that she was single, and even so they forbade it either for the honor of her family or so that b'nos yisroel shouldn't be prutzos b'arayos.
Just to be clear - I'm not hear to judge her, her actions, her blog, her manicurist, or her 3rd-grade teacher. Nor do I maintain that the above is easily understood, and certainly not attained and internalized, even by me. I wouldn't wish such a test on myself, on her, or on anybody. I have my flaws and mistakes as do all of her detractors.
I'm not trying to be cruel and callous, but for Orthodox Jews the halacha is the halacha. In fact I never posted this on her blog due to her diverse readership. If anyone has any reliable halachic information on this subject by all means share - and correct me if I'm wrong. But otherwise please don't go throwing around "mitzvos" which are contradicted by Shulchan Oruch. We now return you to your regularly scheduled blog...
Gesh and BMG B, do you guys like know each other? Hysterical how guys latch on to each other and don't let go. I will agree that a true Ben Torah once you meet him and you are open minded, will need no defending. Sadly, like so many aren't true bnei Torah. Anyway, guys, you both sound pretty decent so ease up. Unless SemGirl likes it, it's her blog. I guess I just think it's like enough already.
Ms. Stark, I am scratching my head. You are a smart girl and must have meant something!
PP, I am so glad someone agrees with me on this. Can't we say that the nisayon is hard and we don't judge the person, and we ourselves are not holding there, and still admit that the ideal is what it is and what we always knew was pretty bad isn't suddenly "not the worst thing..."
Shalom
parsha potpuri, that gemorah is understood acording to all oppinions to mean several things:
A the woman in the gemorah was not at all interested
B the man in the gemorah was interested in a one time thing.
with this it is very very very plain that the pasak was correct, whether she was married or not, (although there is disscussion about that like you said) i mean what the person wanted was intresicly wrong. objectifying would be another word.
sem girl, talking about this is alright as long as it's an academic discussion related to the gemorah and not centered around NJG right? if not then sorry.
HNC - I hear what you're saying, but according to you that pikuach nefesh is docheh everything, why shouldn't it be docheh "objectifying?" After all his life was literally at stake!
Also I hear you're arguments about she didn't want and one-time thing, but could you please quote for me reliable Rishonim and/or Nosei Keilim in Rambam, Tur, Shulchan Oruch who say these points and why should they make a difference? Otherwise they may make sense, but as Orthodox Jews we (meaning ordinary Joes like you and me) don't have the right today to come and interpret halachos in Shulchon Oruch based on our own reasoning that nobody until us mentioned.
Fahkert, doing it only one time to save his life could be considered much better than an ongoing, never-ending thing. And I don't see her willingness or lack thereof mentioned anywhere, nor do I really understand why in the shaila of avizrayhu d'giluy arayos vs. pikuach nefesh that should make any difference either way.
Please clarify, but please quote sources for whatever positions and chilukim you mention.
first of all, i don't remember which one, but a major question is asked about this gemorah, if he wanted to "be" with her, and he was going to die if he didn't, then why not let them get married?
this is actualy a fairly classic shaila on this gemorah, and before you can go and say anything about this gemorah you have to answer it.
those three answers are that
a according to gemorah kiddushin the girl has to accept a kiddushin for it to be valid, therefore in this instance she must not have wanted to.
B you have the obvious answer that he only wanted to "be" with her, and he wasn't interested in marrying her
C: you have the answer that she was married.
i'm sorry i don't remember which of the commentaries to the gemorah state this, but it is certainly one of them. you'll probably have to ask someone who knows the gemorah really well and has studied most of the commentaries to it. however for the longest time the necessity to answer this question was taken as simple peshat, because it is such an obvious question.
so no the answer that she was married was not an attempt to make the gemorah be more inline with what we might expect, but it is actualy an anwser to a glaring hole.
furthermore you ask why i one time issue to save a life would be more of a problem than a long time thing.
well if they wanted to continue messing around indefinitely this would be a valid question, but the final point of the cometantors on this is highly relevant. they say that what ever the reasons where marraige is not mentioned here as a solution because he wouldn't have accepted it. he davka wanted to do something wrong because it was wrong. there might have been the answer that if he wanted to marry the girl, and that was on his mind, and the girl consented then obviously that would have been the solution. basicaly if the issue and the fixing it is in the context of getting married, then there is alot of reason for liniancy, and the entire issue of "accesories" to giluy araioys doesn't exist, because then it is littleraly impossible that this could end up in adultery. the accesories issue only applies if the intent of the person doing it is to do something similar to it in lew of the actual thing. you actualy see a similar issue by some halachos of shabbos.
now i'm mostly just spitting back at you the lecture of a rosh yeshiva who was expaining this issue from memory, but i assure you these are all presant in the gemorah, like i said i can't give you the particular section of the comentaries, but i'm sure a well learned rov could guide you to them.(amoung other things i have an excelent memory when it comes to content, but not nearly so good when it comes to page numbers and the like, usualy when looking for something i have to use the context of the text it self in order to figure out if i'm getting close)
and about the objectifying that's what the answer is in the gemorah, he wishes to objectify her, and that IS an accesory of guluy araios. that's what the answer is when they say that we don't let him degrade the bas yisroel or however it is phrased. he is turning the bas yisroel in to an object, which in turn would encourage him to do this to others, and hence it's relevance to the issue of addultery.
i dont say that it can be anything if someone says i want to go worship idols or i'll die, then let him die, if he says i want to go murder that person or i'll die then let him die. if he says he wants to do something that would be considered an "accesory" then let him die, but we don't accept and would be guilty of shedding blood for accepting an extreme oppinion in this issue like all others. i mean you could say that violating shabbos is an accessory of idol worship, but we don't. if a boy wanted to touch a girl, and would die if he didn't, (he didn't want to marry her or anything) and he was just obsessive about touching her, then i would say let him die, but that isn't what the issue was, it was nothing close to that.
really it's the same kind of stupidity as trying to say that it's ok to go beat up a boy because he and a girl in the neighboor hood want to talk to each other, and that is more the point i'm trying to make. this kind of extreem attitude is inexcusable halachicaly, if he was doing so and she wasn't interested and had told him i could understand, but if he and the girl want to talk, then there is nothing really wrong with their chosing to do so, especialy as it may well lead to a marriage.
FY I have a GREAT idea for a blog.. Why dont you start a blog called 80s Dorm Guy...
So what is everyone doing tonite. My mother is going to the Bais Faiga thing, so I am stuck home babysitting..
i wish i had something good to do. :-( (aka that means nothin.)
IY"HbyME
Thank you thats nice of you to say. Based on a few emails that I received that were really sweet I can vouch that BMG-B seems like a good boy.
OBVIOUSLY.. Do your homework !! You cant trust anything on the internet. But maybe, email him back and forth for a few weeks then ask for references or ppl that know him well, offline. Don't mention how you heard of him, I'm sure between the two of you , you can think of something.
BMGb.. As I said I am stuck babysitting, so I can't go anywhere.
Ok HNC - I understand that it's been a while since you heard your Rosh Yeshiva's shiur on the subject. But if you want to discuss it further, I must ask you for sources for what you're saying or this is futile. I've never even learned that perek b'iyun, but I looked into it over Shabbos so I can back up what I'm saying.
First, this "bomb" kashe of why he didn't marry her - it's not yours or your Rosh Yeshiva's - it's the Gemora's!! And the Gemora doesn't say your teirutzim! The Gemora's answer as Rashi explains it is that marrying her wouldn't have healed him. You could interpret that as saying he didn't want to get married, though the Gemora doesn't say that, and is mashma that this phenomenon has more to do with the churban Beis Hamikdash than this man being a wicked womanizer, ayin sham.
Further, your same question you should ask on NJG - if she wants to kiss a man, let her marry him. I realize you'll answer that she's considering marrying this guy (or was at least) and that MORALLY that makes it seem better (and you're right), but HALACHICALLY (which is the discussion I'm trying to have with you) it's the exact same interaction between 2 unmarried people which is equally forbidden by the Torah without differentiating between their underlying motivations - end of story.
As for your claim that she wouldn't marry him, there's no mention of that in the Gemora or Rishonim and the Aruch L'Ner is mashma that she would have done what was necessary to save his life (even just having relations with him) if it would have helped and been allowed.
As for objectifying her and other women, if you look in Rashi there he says it's the opposite - if this becomes allowed the women may go showing themselves off, getting men sick, which will allow things to be permitted.
Actually, the above is all academic. If you look in the halacha, you'll see that the Darkei Moshe (= the Rema's comments on the Tur) (Yoreh Deah 157) quotes the Ran in Yoma, Pesachim, and Avoda Zara; and so says the Nimukei Yosef here, that the reason one must give up one's life has nothing to do with objectifying, his willingness to marry her, her willingness to marry him, or anything you've mentioned - and so paskens the Rema in Yoreh Deah 157:1!! And the Shach there (os yud I think) agrees and even comes out more machmir, ayin sham.
Rav Moshe Feinstein in Igros Moshe Yoreh Deah 2:174 is explicitly m'dayek the Rambam (Yesodei HaTorah 5:9) as rejecting what you said about the halachic reason for the p'sak being because of objectifying or degrading Jewish women. And the Rambam, as the Beis Yosef points out and seemingly concurs, paskens that it's forbidden even with a single girl and kal v'chomer a married one.
I've done my research. If you prefer to continue disagreeing, please do yours and start quoting some big-league mareh mekomos who back up what you're saying. If not, there's no point in continuing to argue with you, but at least everybody reading will see where the emes lies.
A whole Shiur on my Blog not bad.. A shidduch is in the making now two chavrusas going at it .. who would of thought on a simple girls blog..
Wow again! Sorry I was in B Faiga last night with a married friend who is a BK girl so I wasn't here to keep you all company. I got back zoncked and my whole family was still up so we shmoozed than I just fell asleeep on the recliner. One of my brothers woke me up sometime like around 2:30 and i staggered off to bed, lol.
Ms. Shtark, I guess the weather was nastier where you were on Shabbos than in Lakewood. It wasn't too bad here till much later in the afternoon. I even had a kiddush and it wasn't raining so I was able to go (without boots). I even saw my favorite kollel guy there, so that was like really great!
Motzei Shabbos was nasty. I went with boots, like everyone else. And BTW why is it unique to Tzvi? Walking in Lakewood and Brooklyn and Israel it would seem that every single member of the male race has this hang-up with out p-hose and shoes. Don't you think? And like still they say it is more tznius thasn walking in socks and sneakers. Go figure!
Parshe P, fascinating! I like to take out of this whole thing how much the Torah treats Jewish girls as special and not cheap. (hint, hint to all you guys who don't know how not to objectify and stare subtly.)
Okay, everyone is out now trying to get a snowman going. I think I will join,
Shalom
"Shev, you obviously are either a big tease or are totally clueless about boys."
TJ, a little bit of both.
Seriously, I was actually in a backyard so no publicity. If a guy would've traipsed through the backyards it would be a dead giveaway and I could have told Hooey, Dooey, and Looey! (Did I ever mention that I love Disney? I know es past nisht far a yeshivish Bais Yakov maidel...) The snow was great. Mixed with ice so it stuck very well, though like a bit hard to work with.
Sorry you have to work MS. Hope you're all enjoying the day.
SG, getting close to 300! I know it won't be me (I am so sporadic being online), so I am wishing you an early congrats! You deserve it, and it shows a lot about you.
Shalom
(Did I ever mention that I love Disney? I know es past nisht far a yeshivish Bais Yakov maidel...)
Shev, you are really starting to scare me .. Reminds me of a ride I once got to a friend's Sheva Brochos. A five yr old boy asked to go to Disny World, and his father said "furvus di gais chappin yiras Shomayim fin Micky Mouse" (are you going to learn fear of heaven from Micky Mouse)..
I posted again and would love to hear your thoughts...
Well I would have a date, if it wasnt for the incliment weather and dang. driving conditions.
Is there such a thing as a virtual date, lol..
But I still think that something is seriously wrong when it's me and my friend who are studying nach for a test, and her brother and his friend are comparing ties, shoes, brands, even the straight-back line of their haircuts for over an hour
Shev, maybe that is because girls have tonz of tests and homework in HS, then a grueling entrance exam for Sem that makes an LSAT look like a cakewalk and lots of exams in Sem. Whereas, there are no written exams or constant assignments and papers in Bais Medrash. Many come to BMG to learn and learn real shtark, because they have drive, determination, and self disipline, others come for a Shidduch. But for many, it is the last Country Club in America with a no females admittance policy..
Surprised Lakewood lets Dr. Shanik get away with showing videos (note: not commenting on what's right or not, just surprised at the metzius)!
A virtual date - maybe with BMGBochur's new system it can be arranged...
Woo-hoo - SG I got comments 200, 250, and 300 - thinking I deserve some sort of prize...
And if not for that, you'll see on BMGBochur's blog I finally got you know who to change his ways. Though it was being hit from all sides that really made him come around - we make a great tag-team!
And now off to beis medrash. I'm not around nearly as much as one would assume to get posts 200, 250, and 300, but I think it's sending me a message. Will be waiting for my prize (and a new post already lol)...
wow is this post getting in to some real tangents. (somehow i think thats the secret to elishevas success, she seems to easy going to clamp down on people for getting way off topic)
so sem girl, i'm guessing the bochur you dated is interested in another date and thats why if not for the inclament weather you'd have a date? we're all rooting for you y'know
Sorry, this is out of order. Its my comment from 128 this afternoon edited upon request..
Shev... good afternoon, so you might of seen my mother last nite, she came home very disapointed that the food was really shvach. Not like the Bagel Bash, and other extravagent spreads in yrs past.
No Vienese table or a nice hot buffet.
MS.. Have fun. email me later. So what did you finally before sleep last nite.
Actually geshmaker I thought it was quite reasonable. I don't know that he was so serious to begin with, but there is a big difference between calling an IDEA lousy and giving quite legitimate reasons why you feel that way, to calling the other PERSON a host of names and labeling his very essence. And I do see how hard it is for you (remember - l'fum tzara agra!) and appreciate it - keep up the good work!
Gosh, I guess like Gesh just said, things get mixed up in comments. And I didn't think I was even writing extra brief!
Hello everyone! My comment about es past nisht was made sarcastically. I have like absolutely no problem with most Disney (or things like that for that matter) but if you don't think I can bring you loads of people in Lakewood and other places who will tell you that it's wrong, like the story with the five year old in the car, then you don't know how extreme people get. I was making fun.
Okay, now that everyone really thinks I am this frummy, dorky, geeky BY maidel who is like trying to do something real rebellious and blog (I'm joking!), let me say that from what I've heard from my brother the bechina for BMG is not like half as hard as the guys prepare for it. Which serves them right, because we like have to do that all through high and sem. And the boys I was refering to talking about their clothes, hair, ties etc. were younger and not even in BMG. I think it is a new thing by yeshivish/frum/heimish bachurim that they are taking the whole men's fashion thing a bit too far, at least for my taste, but it seems I am in the minority opinion. Maybe I will do my own post on it in my blog.
About the Bagle Bash. I don't usually go so I can't compare. the person I went with was like too bust socializing to comment on the food, but we did eat, and I can't complain. Wonder if your mother was the one that looked at me like that.... lol
Shalom
Oh, and it's funny cause my brother-in-law had the same thought as Parsha P. He is not from Lakewood, and after moving here after they got married, the first time he was in Dr. Shanik's office he came back surprised that in this town there aren't some wacko frummies who made an issur on Dr. Shanik. He is pretty cool about stuff, but was shocked that Dr. Shanik got away with it here. My mother says it's because everyone respects him, which is so true.
elisheva i got the joke and actualy laughed out loud for all it's worth.
besides (not to start a tangent) but some disney is fun! (though recently except for the stitch movie it hasn't been up to snuff)
Tova.. I want to write a new post, but I dont want to spoil the fun, when this conversation quiets down I will try and post..
DM... I doont appreciate your filth, do I need to block you from commenting..
Shev..looked at you like what ? You must of come very early, because when she came there was very lil to eat. The BK girls were serving very small portions instead of a help yourself huge buffet, she is accustomed to.
PP and BMGB... keep up the good work.. when is the next shiur.
Gesh.. you are doing fine..just remember educated ppl debate, boors fight, and common lowlifes just hurl insults because they are too ignorant to make their case.
MS..good morning..what are you up to..today.
Elisheva - is that really you? I had no idea that such a frum yeshivishe girl would be hanging out here and with her own blog! Don't worry, I won't tell Mom as long as you don't tell her about me! - Bro
SG - glad you enjoy the work. I don't come here to be Rosh Yeshiva (or Mashgiach - that I leave for you!) of the blogs (try putting that on a resume!), just when someone seems to be butchering halacha or Gemoras, I feel no choice. Here's hoping shiur can stay in the beis medrash and the blog can stay yours - my next shiur will be up on my blog IY"H late Wednesday night ... and still waiting for my prize. :)
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